sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/09 17:28:39
(permalink)
Hmm, hard concept for me to understand. I still don't get what is headroom. Is it the gap between a good volume level and when the sound starts to clip or distort?
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/09 17:39:16
(permalink)
I think I'm going to keep my master bus meter below 0db. At the most 1db. Does that sound reasonable? Yes. If you analyze commercial CDs you'll find that peak levels can be anywhere from -12db to -0.0db, with the bulk of pop 'n rock records around -0.1 to -0.3db. If you send your music out for professional mastering it'll likely come back pushed right up to -0.1db. But -1.0db is a more realistic (and safer) practical target for us amateur MEs. It is important to note that the subjective loudness of the recording has little to do with peak levels, but rather average levels. You use a limiter to make sure peaks don't exceed a specified target (e.g. -1.0db) and then start increasing the volume going in to the limiter. This raises the apparent volume of the music, at the expense of the crest factor (the ratio of average to peak levels). Go too far, and the music starts to sound dull and lifeless and lacks clarity and punch. Don't go far enough and the record sounds quiet compared to commercial releases. Mastering is a compromise between those extremes. Which way you lean depends on the genre and your own personal taste and style. It's a huge topic, but here's a quick recipe - not necessarily the final word but just one way to get it done: Insert an instance of Voxengo SPAN on your master bus as the last plugin in the chain, after the limiter. Set it to Mastering mode and select K-14 metering. Set your limiter's brickwall limit to -1.0db. Start by selecting a section of your song that represents the average volume of the song (e.g. a verse, not an intro, fadeout, or a big chorus) and play it back from there. Adjust the limiter's Input slider until SPAN's output meter is bouncing around the 0db mark. (If your limiter does not have an input slider, use the master bus Trim/Gain slider.) Next, select the loudest passage in your song and play that back. Watch the meters, and if it jumps above +6db for more than an instant, pull back the limiter's Input slider until the song mostly stays between 0 and 6db. That's it. This procedure will get you in the ballpark, and you'll have commercial volume without sacrificing too much clarity and dynamics. If your musical style wants to be louder, switch to the K-12 scale and follow the same procedure. If your musical style is, say, acoustic bluegrass or a chamber orchestra, go down to the K-20 scale. If your musical style is EDM or rap, well, feel free to ignore all of the above advice.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/09 17:59:35
(permalink)
From your explanation above compressor and limiter sounds about the same. Though I'm sure there is a difference.
I like your advice and will use it on my next project. Though I'm probably going to let it peak only at the 1db mark. The reason is that of all the 3 CD's Iv'e imported into cakewalk, the song that had the highest peak was at +.6db only.
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/09 23:34:55
(permalink)
Yes, a limiter is actually a type of compressor. Although there are several internal differences between a compressor and a limiter, the main functional difference is how stringently they apply compression. A limiter will allow you to specify a hard upper limit, a so-called "brick wall" that the limiter will not allow your data to exceed, no matter what.
You don't want to ever let your master bus exceed 0.0db, because even though that's acceptable within SONAR, it's not acceptable for an audio interface. Not just your audio interface, but also your listener's iPod or CD player. It's the limiter's job to make sure it doesn't happen.
So I hope you meant -1db, not 1db. :)
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 00:31:32
(permalink)
"Yes, a limiter is actually a type of compressor. Although there are several internal differences between a compressor and a limiter, the main functional difference is how stringently they apply compression. A limiter will allow you to specify a hard upper limit, a so-called "brick wall" that the limiter will not allow your data to exceed, no matter what. "
So does compression let the data pass the threshold? Also what do you mean by "data"? Level? "You don't want to ever let your master bus exceed 0.0db, because even though that's acceptable within SONAR, it's not acceptable for an audio interface. Not just your audio interface, but also your listener's iPod or CD player. It's the limiter's job to make sure it doesn't happen. So I hope you meant -1db, not 1db. :) "
I'm a bit confused and most likely mixing the two, but when you said this:
Next, select the loudest passage in your song and play that back. Watch the meters, and if it jumps above +6db for more than an instant, pull back the limiter's Input slider until the song mostly stays between 0 and 6db.
were you referring to to master bus? Also on a side note, I have seen recordings done with the master peaking at +.6db.
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 10:05:06
(permalink)
If you imported a song from a CD and saw it peaking at +0.6db, then what you saw was an artifact of the conversion. A CD cannot physically store a +0.6db signal.
When I referred to keeping your signal (yes, on the master bus) below +6db, that's in the context of K-metering. A K-meter is calibrated differently than the normal meters you're accustomed to. When you use the K-14 scale, the 0db reference point is moved down to -14db, so hitting +6 actually means you're hitting -8db on the "real" scale.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Rus W
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 541
- Joined: 2010/11/04 00:09:34
- Location: North Carolina
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 10:47:52
(permalink)
Late post. (Nothing to see here)
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 11:15:50
(permalink)
"If you imported a song from a CD and saw it peaking at +0.6db, then what you saw was an artifact of the conversion. A CD cannot physically store a +0.6db signal."
How would you accurately read the dB signal of a CD song? "When I referred to keeping your signal (yes, on the master bus) below +6db, that's in the context of K-metering. A K-meter is calibrated differently than the normal meters you're accustomed to. When you use the K-14 scale, the 0db reference point is moved down to -14db, so hitting +6 actually means you're hitting -8db on the "real" scale. "
I see... So if I get your point, I should add a limiter to my master bus to make sure my levels don't go past the 0db mark on the master bus meter. The recommended peak level on the master bus meter should be between the -14db and -8db mark?
Question is, what's wrong with using the master bus meter? why use the k-14 scale?
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
Rus W
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 541
- Joined: 2010/11/04 00:09:34
- Location: North Carolina
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 13:37:33
(permalink)
sharpdion23
"If you imported a song from a CD and saw it peaking at +0.6db, then what you saw was an artifact of the conversion. A CD cannot physically store a +0.6db signal."
How would you accurately read the dB signal of a CD song? "When I referred to keeping your signal (yes, on the master bus) below +6db, that's in the context of K-metering. A K-meter is calibrated differently than the normal meters you're accustomed to. When you use the K-14 scale, the 0db reference point is moved down to -14db, so hitting +6 actually means you're hitting -8db on the "real" scale. "
I see... So if I get your point, I should add a limiter to my master bus to make sure my levels don't go past the 0db mark on the master bus meter. The recommended peak level on the master bus meter should be between the -14db and -8db mark?
Question is, what's wrong with using the master bus meter? why use the k-14 scale?
As Bit says - the reference point in the K-Metering system is moved. Such a system is a "perceived volume" scale. Just like Equalization is perceived volume, when it's really volume of a frequency. Now, this doesn't mean just because the K-Meter says -8dB that you should adjust the master to offset it. IOW, you don't want the perceived volume (as indicated by the Spectrum Analyzer) to reach 0.0. Boost the bass frequency, that part seems louder than everything else. Boost the mids, instruments in that range are perceived to be louder than they really are. Same is true with the treble. Now, pull up a spectrum analyzer, and you'll see this being the case. Take a track and pull all the bass, mid and/or treble out. Those respective parts of the spectrum will decrease (ie: perceived volume) and the conventional meters will react in the same manner. Likewise, if you boost those parts. (I just pushed/pulled the mid/treble frequencies and this is what happened. To my ear, they got louder/softer in volume). The conventional meters tend to react to bass boosts/reductions more often (and more vividly) then the other two frequency categories - you could squeeze mids in there, but low mids probably. Going back to the K-Metering system: Now, this doesn't mean just because the K-Meter says -8dB that you should adjust the master to offset it. IOW, you don't want the perceived volume (as indicated by the Spectrum Analyzer) to reach 0.0. I currently have a track set to K-14. Depending on what "0" is on the VU meter, the reference point for the perceived level is -14; however, this doesn't mean I actually have more headroom. If I took this as just, I'd be beyond clipping! To show you what the Spectrum Analyzer plug looks like: http://www.440audio.com/en/software/v4292-Voxengo-SPAN/#win Regarding the Limiter, I can't speak for Bit, but given my experience once I found out what the Limiter was actually doing, I have avoided using it altogether. As I said if it's just turning up the volume, applying a Limiter should be the absolute last resort! (And last thing, in the chain if you do use it) Bit, correct any mistake I may have made
post edited by Rus W - 2012/10/10 14:32:38
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 14:28:46
(permalink)
I found this youtube video that explains k-metering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnREPzUfUgU Let me know if there are something he said wrong. "When I referred to keeping your signal (yes, on the master bus) below +6db, that's in the context of K-metering. A K-meter is calibrated differently than the normal meters you're accustomed to. When you use the K-14 scale, the 0db reference point is moved down to -14db, so hitting +6 actually means you're hitting -8db on the "real" scale. " If in K-14 scale 0db is really -14db on the real scale...What about the k-20 and k-12 scales?
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
Rus W
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 541
- Joined: 2010/11/04 00:09:34
- Location: North Carolina
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 15:46:07
(permalink)
Okay. Do you understand absolute value in mathematics? How far am I away from 0? The absolute value of any number is that number. -14 is 14 units away from 0 28 is 28 units away from 0 Headroom is just that. However, to use the above numbers relating to volume: 28dB is atrocious distortion. -14dB - how about we creep that up a bit? This is the reason he said K-20 has the most dynamic range because 20 is further away from 0 than the other two values (in both directions). K-20: 20dB of headroom K-14: 14dB of headroom K-12: 12dB of headroom What Bit did was calculate the difference between the real scale and the K-Meter's scale to get the headroom capacity. If your master is @ -6dB, yes, you have 6dB of headroom according to the real scale (the VU meter value). However, if you figure in the different K-Meter scales: K-20 @ -6dB = 14dB K-14 @ -6dB = 8dB K-12 @ -6dB = 6dB Notice the headroom decrease. That may be the wrong analogy to use, but I did to illustrate the YT video and Bit's summation. (Do correct me if I am wrong)
post edited by Rus W - 2012/10/10 15:47:42
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 16:26:10
(permalink)
The important thing to remember is when you are working normally ie mixing you can work with K system reference levels eg K-12, K-14 and K-20. But when you are mastering you have to alter the calibration of your system. You cannot use normal K metering to master while the ref level is set for mixing. The meters in that K video are not great either and I would not recommend them. You are better off getting a VU meter that looks and operates like a real VU meter such as the Klanghelm meters here: http://www.klanghelm.com/VUMT.html The reason is that a VU meter needs 300 ms to reach the 0 Vu dB mark on the scale so therefore it is not responding much to material that is faster than that. Hence it is much better at showing you the true rms value of the signal. A VU makes it much easier to set tracking levels and buss levels. Back to mastering. Suppose you set up a K ref of K -14 but import a well mastered commercial CD. What you will see then is the VU meter going well off the scale so to properly master you must be able to re calibrate the K meters. I have found a lot of loud commercial material is around -7 dB rms so you really need to be able to quickly and easily reset your K metering to suit eg the K meters have to be set now for K -7. The Klanghelm meters allow to calibrate at any ref level which is better than the meters in that video as well. With real VU meters such as I have I have a variable amplifier driving them and I can easily alter the ref level as well. So if you recalibrate to say K -7 then your mix that you have done at K-14 will now fall 7 dB short the whole time from 0 dB VU and then you can start mastering the signal and getting back up to read 0 on the VU meter again meaning the music is now averaging - 7dB rms instead of your mixing reference. Don't forget too that K system metering is also about consistent monitoring volume in your studio which you can set at around 83 to 85 dB SPL C weighting.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 19:01:46
(permalink)
"If your master is @ -6dB, yes, you have 6dB of headroom according to the real scale (the VU meter value)."
So are you saying that the track/bus meters in cakewalk are a type of VU meter?
-----------
"When you use the K-14 scale, the 0db reference point is moved down to -14db, so hitting +6 actually means you're hitting -8db on the "real" scale. "
So basically the "real" scale is the meter that cakewalk provided?
K-20 is -20db to -14db or in "real" scale -6db to 0db
K-14 is -14db to -8db or in "real" scale -6db to 0db
K-12 is -12db to -6db or in "real" scale -6db to 0db
So really the headroom for K-20 is 20db to -14db, K-14 is -14db to -8db, and K-12 is -12db to -6db?
--------------------
Does RMS mean the average signal level of the project/song?
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 19:38:01
(permalink)
Does RMS mean the average signal level of the project/song? It can. An average RMS reading can be for a whole song, a portion of a song, or any other arbitrary interval of time. When you're watching an RMS meter, it's typically showing the average over 50 millisecond intervals. Headroom refers to how much the signal can jump up before hitting the absolute limit (0db in a digital system). So if your song has an average value of, say, -20db that means there's room for 20db-high peaks if you want them. You normally don't need that much headroom for pop music, but you certainly do in classical music. In rock music, most of those peaks represent drum hits. If you want a snare to really crack, being able to make it 12 or 14 db above the rest of the music is going to sound much more dramatic than if you only have 4 db to play with.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 19:48:28
(permalink)
So basically the "real" scale is the meter that cakewalk provided?
I think I understand what headroom is now. The more headroom, the more dynamic range to play with before it clips. Thanks!
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 19:51:42
(permalink)
I think sharpdio23 you are on the right track. No, Sonar track and buss meters (and most DAW's) are not really suitable for showing K system levels. Because a Sonar meter will be hovering around (-17 for a K -14 ref level. Sonar's meters show true rms which is 3 dB down form the peak value)
A meter is not much use hovering way down low while you are trying to read rms K levels. You need a meter that is showing FSD or 0dB VU while the digital ref level is right down at the ref level. That way you are seeing the full range of the meter.
You can buy them and install them easily though. Studio One meters can be put into K system mode at any time which is rather cool. (busses and Masterbuss only)
VU meters also show something else and that is the ballistics of the music or ie how the needles move! You wont see that in any other meter. There is a lot of information in how a VU meter moves on a very well balanced mix and mastered track. When your mix and mastering is not happening you will see it in the VU meter. It makes you go and hunt down the tracks that are making them move wildly but not offering any real extra sound. eg silly subsonic material that is of no real value.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 20:52:37
(permalink)
Thanks Jeff.
Maybe my question really should be, what kind of meter is the one provided in cakewalk tracks and buses?
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 21:12:09
(permalink)
The metering provided in Sonar is rms and peak which is great. (depending on what settings you have for the meters of course) It is just the rms values are all showing low down on the meter scale that is all. With a proper K meter the rms values are all up high around 0 dB VU.
The ideal thing is to use both an rms K system meter and a normal peak meter. You definitely need peak metering too because the VU won't show damaging peaks at all or very well so as we are in the digital world now peak metering is a must. But for some reason a lot of modern DAW's have abandoned rms or VU metering in favour for peak metering.
Back in the analog days we only had VU or rms metering and we did not worry about the peaks because the built in headroom of all the stages in an analog recording chain basically took care of the peaks by themselves and without fuss usually without any audible effects.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 23:07:00
(permalink)
I'm understanding quite a bit, but still have questions.
What I know so far is that it is a good idea to have an rms meter and a peak meter since an RMS meter only shows the average perceived cumulate volume and the peak shows in real time where the audio peaks. Correct me if I'm wrong.
"It is just the rms values are all showing low down on the meter scale that is all. With a proper K meter the rms values are all up high around 0 dB VU. "
1.What do you mean when you say "low down" and "up high"?
2.As for a peak meter, would you suggest a plugin that is a true peak meter?
3. Do VU meters usually read slightly lower than the true RMS value?
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 23:23:19
(permalink)
In answer to your questions.
1 I am referring to where the meter is indicating. eg the rms value that is actually showing on the meter. If you are using a K reference of say K-20 and Sonar is showing that at -23 dB rms then the meter is indicating something that is very low down on the meter scale itself ie it is hard to see because it is almost at the bottom end of the scale. But with a K meter you are looking at something that is right up high on the meter scale right up near 0 dB VU so it is much easier to see!
2 No, I think most DAW's cover peak metering pretty well and I don't feel you have to go and buy a better peak meter although you could and you might be able to see more information as a result eg the BlueCat meter.
3 Yes, with a sine wave the VU will show the same value but with music or pink noise the VU meter will read slightly low but slight being -1dB down from 0dB which is not a big deal. I tend to push the music right up to 0dB VU which means the overall level might end up a little louder in the end but that is usually OK as it means a little less you have to go in the mastering stage.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/10 23:31:47
(permalink)
Thanks, that answered my questions.
Though I'm confused about one thing still. Why does K-meter have a different scale than the real scale?
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 00:20:21
(permalink)
Well that is because if you have a digital type K meter you will see the scale above 0dB VU. For example if you are working at K-14 then the scale is normal up to 0dB VU but there is another 14 dB of meter scale above 0 dB of course. That means you are working in the headroom area now and you really should not be in that area much or for long.
The VU meters (real ones) don't have that. I can only really see another +3dB above 0 dB VU but I don't mind that. I can generally get the music to just reach 0 db VU most of the time and it rarely goes above that. If it does then you have to look as to why etc..
I can and do also use both the real VU and something like the BlueCat meter which does show the headroom scale above 0 dB VU as well if I really need to see what is going on in that part of the scale.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 13:27:46
(permalink)
I still am confused about the comparison of the different meter scales.
What I know which might be wrong is that -6db on the k-12 scale is equal to 0db on the real scale. So on the K-12 scale the recommended headroom space is between -12db and -6db. Going past -6db on the k-12 scale would clip.
VU meters are a type of RMS meter?
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 13:35:04
(permalink)
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 14:29:12
(permalink)
Okay, maybe I should just try and learn the simple things first. I have the Blue Cat's Digital Peak Meter. What RMS levels should my range be as a general rule of thumb using the normal system and not the k-systems?
post edited by sharpdion23 - 2012/10/11 14:38:41
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 14:50:37
(permalink)
are you talking individual tracks, or stereo mixes? do you want high RMS average, or do you want to control peaks only? do you want your music to be full of dynamics, and have wide ranging deep sound, or do you want it flat and undynamic like the majority of major label releases today? rms energy depends solely on the source. after that, if you decide to tame peaks before conversion, you will need an outboard compressor and/or limiter. after that, once the signal is in the DAW, youi can further apply more compression, and limiting, to wrestle the RMS average into whatever range you see fit. the point of all this, is to get your sound into the daw in a matter that does not distort, and does not bring up the noise floor (by greatly amplifying a weak sound) me, i watch my peaks, and worry not about RMS i track with peaks at -12db typically. i also track with outboard compression. sometimes i use it for PEAK control, sometimes i use it for subtle compression, sometimes i use it just for color.
post edited by batsbrew - 2012/10/11 14:51:46
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 14:55:29
(permalink)
my RMS averages about -20 to -22 on a track per track basis.
i know this, because i use the meters, and i also do things occasionally to check my modus operendi, such as outputting individual tracks and running it thru the analysis portion of my mastering software (Wavelab)
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 15:24:52
(permalink)
"are you talking individual tracks, or stereo mixes? " So your RMS would be -20 to-22 on per track. stereo mix as in master bus? Yes I would like to know on master bus. "do you want your music to be full of dynamics, and have wide ranging deep sound, or do you want it flat and undynamic like the majority of major label releases today? " full of dynamics, and have wide ranging deep sound. But I don't want to see a huge difference between the RMS in my project and the RMS they use in major label releases today. "after that, if you decide to tame peaks before conversion, you will need an outboard compressor and/or limiter. " You mean a limiter at the end of the master bus fx chain so it doesn't clip? "after that, once the signal is in the DAW, youi can further apply more compression, and limiting, to wrestle the RMS average into whatever range you see fit. " Would a normalizer do a good job for this? "do you want high RMS average, or do you want to control peaks only?" I watch my peaks, and try to keep my RMS at a robust healthy level. "my RMS averages about -20 to -22 on a track per track basis. " So that would be around -10 to -8db on the k-12 scale?
post edited by sharpdion23 - 2012/10/11 15:27:00
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 16:02:24
(permalink)
sharpdion23
"are you talking individual tracks, or stereo mixes? "
So your RMS would be -20 to-22 on per track. stereo mix as in master bus? Yes I would like to know on master bus. that's per mono track. master bus and individual track meter status read exatly the same, assuming no processing on the bus.
"do you want your music to be full of dynamics, and have wide ranging deep sound, or do you want it flat and undynamic like the majority of major label releases today? "
full of dynamics, and have wide ranging deep sound. But I don't want to see a huge difference between the RMS in my project and the RMS they use in major label releases today.
IMO, you can have one, but not the other. the only time you see rms close to matching peak, is on source that has very little dynamics, such as a synth tone.
"after that, if you decide to tame peaks before conversion, you will need an outboard compressor and/or limiter. "
You mean a limiter at the end of the master bus fx chain so it doesn't clip?
once you've gone thru conversion, you have what you have. software after conversion is an entirely different issue. you cannot limit with software, to affect your INCOMING signal before conversion.
"after that, once the signal is in the DAW, youi can further apply more compression, and limiting, to wrestle the RMS average into whatever range you see fit. "
Would a normalizer do a good job for this? no. do not use normalizing.
"do you want high RMS average, or do you want to control peaks only?"
I watch my peaks, and try to keep my RMS at a robust healthy level.
if you drive your RMS upwards, you also drive your peaks upwards, unless you process with compression and limiting.
"my RMS averages about -20 to -22 on a track per track basis. "
So that would be around -10 to -8db on the k-12 scale?
see the chart i provided.
|
sharpdion23
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 784
- Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
- Location: Vancouver, BC
- Status: offline
Re:Burn mp3's or wav's?
2012/10/11 16:36:58
(permalink)
So if I add Blue Cat's Peak Meter to a track using the normal scale, your recommendation is for the RMS to stay close to the -20db to -22db mark. Also making sure my peak levels don't hit the clipping point.
Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire
Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *
Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276 A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
|