bitflipper
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 15:18:12
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You guys disappoint me. This thread has been up for days now, and still no real controversy. No name calling or nothing! Perhaps the arguments are too esoteric. I started a thread once basically stating that it didn't matter what dither algorithm you use. I expected a challenge, but it went nowhere. That surprised me, given the frequency with which the "which dither?" queries routinely appear here. Since a dozen people will reply to such threads, I would have thought there were some opinions. I went into Ethan's presentation as a member of the proverbial choir. I have tremendous respect for him. (And considerably less for a few of his challengers, some of whom should be embarrased to include the word "engineer" in their job descriptions. Real engineers aren't threatened by science, even when debatable conclusions are drawn from it.) But when he got to the dither part, where he challenges the listener to identify the dithered versus undithered samples, I picked the dithered sample all three times. Of course that was with the crappy YouTube audio. Maybe it was a fluke. I plan to perform my own ABX tests to find out. BTW, I must have missed the part about making a cheap mic sound like an expensive one with EQ. If only that were true! If he did make that statement, it would have been irresponsible. I doubt that's exactly what he said, though. Now, if you state that a $5k mic is not 5 times better than a $1k mic, I think we'd all agree with that. What Ethan is trying to do is get people to think more objectively and skeptically. There is way too much marketing BS and urban mythology in this business. When being nominated for a Grammy is considered equivalent to an Electrical Engineering degree as far as qualifying someone as an expert, then we've slipped from objectivity and science into the same celebrity-worshipping psuedo-reality as the entertainment industry at large. To that end, I think the presentation did a fine job, even if it was marred by a little hyperbole.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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drewfx1
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 16:03:11
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bitflipper
But when he got to the dither part, where he challenges the listener to identify the dithered versus undithered samples, I picked the dithered sample all three times. Of course that was with the crappy YouTube audio. Maybe it was a fluke. I plan to perform my own ABX tests to find out.
Interestingly, I "guessed" right on the two where I thought I might hear some kind of difference (through YouTube/cheap headphones on my laptop). But I suspect it may be a fluke as well. Harder to test this definitively, because, IMO if you don't expect to hear a difference, you might not hear it even if there is one (because you have a negative expectation bias). BTW, I must have missed the part about making a cheap mic sound like an expensive one with EQ. If only that were true! If he did make that statement, it would have been irresponsible. I doubt that's exactly what he said, though.
Now, if you state that a $5k mic is not 5 times better than a $1k mic, I think we'd all agree with that.
It was an AT4033 and a Neumann (IIRC) TLM103. What Ethan is trying to do is get people to think more objectively and skeptically. There is way too much marketing BS and urban mythology in this business. When being nominated for a Grammy is considered equivalent to an Electrical Engineering degree as far as qualifying someone as an expert, then we've slipped from objectivity and science into the same celebrity-worshipping psuedo-reality as the entertainment industry at large.
To that end, I think the presentation did a fine job, even if it was marred by a little hyperbole.
+++ to Ethan (I am a fan as well). Just having a bit of fun here. I think he does a marvelous job of putting things in perspective (acoustics/monitors vs. amps/converters), but I think he sometimes overstates things. I also think we need to hold him to the same standards of objectivity and skepticism as we do people we tend to doubt or disagree with. The beauty of proper science is that it stands up to skepticism and doubt when tested, whether it be theoretically or empirically. drewfx
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ricstudioc
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 16:15:19
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Great Stuff!! Thanks for posting that link.
Now, finish this sentence -
"If it sounds good, _____________"
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Oaf_Topik
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 16:29:01
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You guys disappoint me. This thread has been up for days now, and still no real controversy. No name calling or nothing! That's because a lot of Sonar Producer forum "experts," hardly ever take the elevator down to the basement...
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bapu
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 16:33:27
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That's because a lot of Sonar Producer forum "experts," hardly ever take the elevator down to the basement... There are SONAR Producer experts? Time for new release.
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drewfx1
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 17:11:48
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bapu
That's because a lot of Sonar Producer forum "experts," hardly ever take the elevator down to the basement...
There are SONAR Producer experts?
Time for new release.
They're experts on their own opinions... I must say you guys are finally getting into the spirit, but anonymous 3rd party sarcastic name calling isn't nearly as much fun as when it's personal and vitriolic.  drewfx
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Crg
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 17:14:50
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What are ya, some kind of computer nerd or something?
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bitflipper
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 17:22:48
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That's because a lot of Sonar Producer forum "experts," hardly ever take the elevator down to the basement... There's an elevator?
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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MurMan
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/28 17:29:23
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bitflipper
There's an elevator?
He meant to say trash chute.
Sonar 8PE & VS, Presonus Firestudio, VS-100, AlphaTrack, Nord Stage Compact, Roland Sonic Cell, Axiom 49, dbx 386, Event TR-8's, Kawai 650, ...
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Jonbouy
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/30 02:30:00
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bitflipper
That's because a lot of Sonar Producer forum "experts," hardly ever take the elevator down to the basement...
There's an elevator?
Ya, just pick one of Bapu's threads at random duplicate it in the producer forum stick yer fingers in yer ears close your eyes and say 'going down', when you open them again you'll be right here. Really I'm just bumping this thread 'cause it rocks. As for the Realtek as was mentioned earlier, there are disadvantages to on-board sound chips of course but sound quality isn't an issue these days. Latency wasn't a problem for me either although I know some folk have difficulty getting one working with low enough latency I never had that problem. Lack of decent inputs is the real issue I came across but if you are just using soft synths or existing audio then no problems trouble is most of us here want to be able to record and usually more than a couple of channels at once. For writing and prototyping a track with soft-synth or mixing existing audio say on a laptop then any new sound chip will suffice as far as audio performance goes. I downloaded the accompaning files for the bit reduction test and I was surprised I got well below (I'm not saying how far below... ) 16bits before I could actually hear a difference and from having a go at mixing the CHB stuff I know that low noise levels don't show up in the final print. Mind you you could set off a bomb while tracking there and you wouldn't hear it in the final mix... 
post edited by Jonbouy - 2010/01/30 02:34:06
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Johannes H
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/30 06:25:24
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I agree with drewfx1 that Ethan sometimes overstates things, I guess he does that to wake us up.
Jon, I agree that the Realtek sounds good, but as you mention the inputs are not very usable for music recording.
Best, JH
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bitflipper
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/30 11:50:36
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All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bapu
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/30 14:06:05
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bitflipper
Ya, just pick one of Bapu's threads at random duplicate it in the producer forum stick yer fingers in yer ears close your eyes and say 'going down', when you open them again you'll be right here.
That's your best line yet, JB.
Hey hey. I have one or two threads in the SPF that have stuck. Maybe the repairmen are still stumped?
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KenB123
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/30 16:33:16
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bitflipper
BTW, I must have missed the part about making a cheap mic sound like an expensive one with EQ. If only that were true! If he did make that statement, it would have been irresponsible. I doubt that's exactly what he said, though.
Now, if you state that a $5k mic is not 5 times better than a $1k mic, I think we'd all agree with that.
I don't recall him comparing cheap mic vs. expensive. But he did talk about cheaper sound cards versus expensive sound cards.
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Moshkiae
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/01/30 16:36:17
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Oaf_Topik
You guys disappoint me. This thread has been up for days now, and still no real controversy. No name calling or nothing!
That's because a lot of Sonar Producer forum "experts," hardly ever take the elevator down to the basement...
... hahaha ... what it really means is that ... it takes too long to even get into it ... and some people are only interested in the 3 minute variety ... ohh excuse me ... 7 minute variety (so it can be called "prog") ... and the attention span kinda falls down after that ... or you could just say that the interest dies right after the cigarette! ... and something like this is more about the appreciation of every second, than a limited number of time ... which has the same thing over and over and over again ...
post edited by Moshkiae - 2010/01/30 16:39:19
As a wise Guy once stated from his holy chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... prevents you from becoming just another turkey in the middle of all the other turkeys!
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bapu
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/03/06 18:52:19
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Wow, they had a workshop on how to develop audio myths. The CHB has been cooking that one up for sometime now. 
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The_Retrofits
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/03/07 01:37:29
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3 Thumbs up (sorry, a weird birth defect of mine) for Ethan, his theory and his products!
Bought his Portable Vocal Booth. All ya need for vocals!
My high-tech setup?
...My back faces my closet when I sing, and I stuff it with clothes, hang comforters over the closet doors and ensconce myself in tight with the PVB in front. Studio Shmoodio!, I say!
Mic? Older model Rhode NT-1 (better in warmth, I've heard, than the newer versions).
Can't hear much of a difference between the Rhode NT-1 and a $3,000 Neumann - and I've had the op to work with both (the Neumann on a loan).
Go Ethan!
Martin
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jackn2mpu
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/03/07 07:22:13
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Ethan is an interesting case. He has a lot of valuable stuff to get out but as some have said goes a little overboard. Okay, he's VP or whatever it is for RealTraps and he has to shill for his product - fair enough. But to think his product is the only solution isn't right. I've seen this about him more than once, especially over in the rec.pro.audio newsgroup (haven't ben there in a while since Verizon dumped Usenet). Refuses to acknowledge one of his major competitors - Auralex.
Something that, in my eyes at least, reduces his credibility is this: he has a video on YouTube (about 22 mins. long) called "The Ultimate Home Studio" where he and another person talk about and show Auralex products and how great they are in the different rooms (control, tracking). Poor quality audio to say the least. I thought it was an on-camera mic but turns out it was a mic far away from where the 2 on-camera people were speaking. I don't know if the goal was to show how good RT stuff works or what, but the audio quality was horrid. I made a comment about it on YouTube and Ethan wrote back that he didn't hear or have a problem with the audio quality. Now I know YouTube audio isn't the best, but I've heard way better on there and this just diminished any claim to authority he may have.
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