The Maillard Reaction
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Audio Myths Workshop
This has been out on YouTube since January but I just watched it tonight. It seems to parallel the way I feel about a lot of things regarding audio tech. Maybe someone will find it interesting: Audio Myths Workshop Most of the examples are produced with SONAR best regards, mike
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Legion
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/17 00:58:24
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Yeah this one is excellent! Lookin forward to seeing it again so thanks for the reminder 
Sadly very reduced studio equipment as it is... ASUS G750J, 8 gb RAM, Win8, Roland Quad Capture.
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bitflipper
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/17 10:49:40
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Why is it that so many audio engineers have a hard time with the concept of inaudibility? Many seem to take the attitude that there is no such thing, arguing that a signal chain needs to have a 100KHz bandwidth or that a 96db SNR is inadequate. Or confusing measurability with audibility. It's no wonder they get suckered into oxygen-free cables and such.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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BretB
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/18 14:51:07
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Sonar Platinum - A&H ZED R16 - KRK VXT4's - Yamaha DTXpress IV & Gretsch Catalina Maple kits "Music is what feelings sound like" https://soundcloud.com/bret575b
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John
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/18 15:15:15
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bitflipper
Why is it that so many audio engineers have a hard time with the concept of inaudibility? Many seem to take the attitude that there is no such thing, arguing that a signal chain needs to have a 100KHz bandwidth or that a 96db SNR is inadequate. Or confusing measurability with audibility. It's no wonder they get suckered into oxygen-free cables and such.
Your point is perfect. I wonder too what it is that makes them essentially disregard their ears and believe a huckster.
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drewfx1
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/18 16:03:00
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bitflipper
Or confusing measurability with audibility. It's no wonder they get suckered into oxygen-free cables and such.
It's not confusing measurability with audibility so much that dives me crazy. It's all of the people who claim the ear is a "precision measurement device" that can hear things that are unmeasurable by science.
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dmbaer
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/20 16:31:10
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bitflipper
Why is it that so many audio engineers have a hard time with the concept of inaudibility? Many seem to take the attitude that there is no such thing, arguing that a signal chain needs to have a 100KHz bandwidth or that a 96db SNR is inadequate. Or confusing measurability with audibility. It's no wonder they get suckered into oxygen-free cables and such.
I particularly liked Ethan's story (in the video) about constructing a listening station with a fake switch labeled "solid state" and "tube" (or something to that effect). Whichever position you picked, it was the same amp. The EE geeks uniformly preferred the solid state option and the "audiophiles" the other. Only one person was not fooled. He just looked at Ethan and reportedly said "you a**hole". 
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brundlefly
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/20 16:46:12
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Why is it that so many audio engineers have a hard time with the concept of inaudibility? Because admitting you can't hear something leaves open the possibility that someone with better ears can. Therefore it is a natural ego-protection response to claim you can hear everything... even things that are not measurable. That reminds me - time to clean my Monster cables again. My last mix sounded a little "dusty".
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/20 20:23:07
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I think al lot of it comes down to... some engineer tested some piece of gear with some extremely precise lab gear... and saw a minute difference... which technically is better .... but it so infinitesimally small that no ear could possibly hear that change.....but... this is where ego comes in... they have to have the best... and then to impress the clients.... they play the huckster.... even unwittingly, by claiming to hear the difference.... and claiming you must be deaf if you can't hear it. I have contended that I can not hear the difference between 16 and 24 bit tracks, and neither can most other people..... but my wife would agree, stating that I can't hear lots of things.... but that's beside the point. On cables and such.... I don't buy my cables at radio shack but by the same token I will not buy the top of the line expensive cables either.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2010/09/20 20:25:11
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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bitflipper
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/21 08:19:51
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my wife would agree, stating that I can't hear lots of things.... Wives use an entirely different metering scale, Herb. My wife often claims she's told me something when I'm sure she never did. Clearly, she hears things I cannot.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/21 08:55:33
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bitflipper
my wife would agree, stating that I can't hear lots of things....
Wives use an entirely different metering scale, Herb. My wife often claims she's told me something when I'm sure she never did. Clearly, she hears things I cannot.
Dave.... exactly! What kicks my butt however, is when I KNOW she never told me something... and I defend that knowledge, and in the middle of the discussion, one of my daughters walks by and says..."Daddy I remember hearing momma tell you to do that 4 days ago when you were on the back porch"........... aye carramba....! I'm dead man walking at that point.......think quick... time to man up and say " Honey, I didn't hear you say that, I swear, or else I'd have done it by now, you know that... I'm sorry! I'll get right on it " better go buy some flowers or something quick while I'm at it too...and do what ever it was that she "supposedly" asked me to do immediately!
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Karyn
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/21 09:36:01
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You guys simply choose what you wanna hear depending on what you're doing at the time... 
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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Beagle
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/21 09:52:02
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Guitarhacker
bitflipper
my wife would agree, stating that I can't hear lots of things....
Wives use an entirely different metering scale, Herb. My wife often claims she's told me something when I'm sure she never did. Clearly, she hears things I cannot.
Dave.... exactly! What kicks my butt however, is when I KNOW she never told me something... and I defend that knowledge, and in the middle of the discussion, one of my daughters walks by and says..."Daddy I remember hearing momma tell you to do that 4 days ago when you were on the back porch"........... aye carramba....! I'm dead man walking at that point.......think quick... time to man up and say " Honey, I didn't hear you say that, I swear, or else I'd have done it by now, you know that... I'm sorry! I'll get right on it " better go buy some flowers or something quick while I'm at it too...and do what ever it was that she "supposedly" asked me to do immediately!
Next time you should just skip the step of defending your knowledge and go right into the grovelling...
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batsbrew
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/21 11:01:54
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fwrend
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/21 16:49:00
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Beagle
Guitarhacker
bitflipper
my wife would agree, stating that I can't hear lots of things....
Wives use an entirely different metering scale, Herb. My wife often claims she's told me something when I'm sure she never did. Clearly, she hears things I cannot.
Dave.... exactly! What kicks my butt however, is when I KNOW she never told me something... and I defend that knowledge, and in the middle of the discussion, one of my daughters walks by and says..."Daddy I remember hearing momma tell you to do that 4 days ago when you were on the back porch"........... aye carramba....! I'm dead man walking at that point.......think quick... time to man up and say " Honey, I didn't hear you say that, I swear, or else I'd have done it by now, you know that... I'm sorry! I'll get right on it " better go buy some flowers or something quick while I'm at it too...and do what ever it was that she "supposedly" asked me to do immediately!
Next time you should just skip the step of defending your knowledge and go right into the grovelling...
A very wise man once suggested resolving the following before responding to the spouse: Do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? Thanks for the link reminder Mike!
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SvenArne
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 02:47:26
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I seem to remember a lot of people at GearSlutz started hating on Ethan Winer when this vid came out. Not to mention that quasireligious studiophool site, TheWomb. It's not a surprise to see it gets a far better reception here. Interestingly, most SONAR users at GearSlutz or other sites seem to be of the scientific or objectivist variety. Seeing as most of the others seem to use Macs, could it be connected with the I'm a Mac vs I'm a PC thing? Sven
post edited by SvenArne - 2010/09/22 02:49:53
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batsbrew
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 10:44:06
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drewfx1
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 11:29:45
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"Balance" is important when dealing with differences of opinion. But it is not the appropriate method for determining scientific facts. The proper methodologies for investigating factual (scientific) questions are controlled testing, peer review, reproducibility, and independent verification of test results. "Balanced" discussions in which one side adamantly opposes controlled testing ("there's no need for doing a test like that, because I know I'm right"), are pointless and, at least to me, reflect poorly on the people involved.
post edited by drewfx1 - 2010/09/22 11:31:15
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batsbrew
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 13:06:55
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i just don't think ethan winer has the chops.
his science is suspect.
hence, the 'balance' is required.
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bitflipper
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 13:34:56
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Sorry, bat, I have to disagree. Ethan's science may sometimes be incomplete (e.g. he overstates the importance of comb filtering, which occurs naturally all around us and often isn't a big deal at all) but I wouldn't call it suspect. He does adhere to scientific principles and - most important - sticks to verifiable facts. I have never heard him make any claim that you or I couldn't verify ourselves by experimentation.
Some of the folks on The Womb are big believers in the fairy dust theory and feel threatened by scientific examination. I hang out there on occasion and love to hear Bob Olhsson's views on the music industry. Bob has been one of the folks who sometimes challenges Ethan, but always respectfully and objectively.
There are others on that forum, though, who come off as whiny brats. The fact that they are professional audio engineers does not carry enough weight in and of itself to lend them unimpeachable authority. If they disagree with Ethan, they resort to innuendo - sometimes refusing to even identify him by name - as if that were some kind of rebuttal. Reminds me of the guy who came on this forum and argued a technical point by pointing out that he had a PhD in Electrical Engineering, as if that was a conclusive argument in itself.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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drewfx1
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 13:48:21
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Well, to be fair Ethan is not really a math/theory guy, and he certainly has made errors at times. And often he overstates his case to varying degrees. And I have seen him back off a bit on some of his statements when cornered. But, IME, 9 times out of 10, the "science" of the people arguing against him in places like that is either wrong, non-existent, or far worse than his. If someone like Ethan is making a suspect scientific claim, it's often quite easy to disprove them if you're willing to bother with a proper test. Most people aren't, so they just assert that they can hear all kinds of stuff with absolutely nothing to back it up. I wouldn't call that "balance". But I'd agree that Ethan should be called on his BS, just like I encourage people to call me on mine, or anyone else's. 
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batsbrew
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 15:00:43
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bottom line is:
always trust YOUR OWN EARS
and never listen to a salesman.
LOL
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John
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 15:29:54
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Seeing as most of the others seem to use Macs, could it be connected with the I'm a Mac vs I'm a PC thing? Sven Now that is funny and point very well taken.
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John
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 15:34:50
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batsbrew
i just don't think ethan winer has the chops.
his science is suspect.
hence, the 'balance' is required.
Chops? Is this a butcher shop? I have gone up against Ethan on the Sonar forum about another subject. In this case he is very much of the same disposition as I am. I am with him on this one. Balance is only relevant with two equally valid ideas. I don't see that as being the case here.
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batsbrew
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 15:56:17
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like i previously said...
trust your own ears.
chops, you know what i mean, or you are being obtuse for the sake of argument.
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John
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 16:23:52
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As a matter of fact I was pointing out how obtuse your statement is in regards Ethan. If you were using the slang term to discredit his musical ability which the term refers to then you would be very wrong. If you are using it as a slang term meaning having specific knowledge and thus to discredit him then you would also be very wrong. So your usage is inappropriate no matter how you meant it. Ethan is a superb musician. He is also extremely knowledgeable about sound.
Me, I was simply trying to be funny and at the same time make a point.
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batsbrew
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 16:34:56
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ok, whatever.
moral of the story is:
there's snake oil everywhere.
trust your ears.
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Philip
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 19:14:06
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Haha! Oh that video!
Ethan Winer's video changed my life, really!
(Bat, I'd probably trust your ears, at some point, more than mine ... thats why I post my song-struggles for feedback.)
In fact, I trust multiple artists' ears as they start contradicting each other with sweet biases ... old and new. At least there's life in those ears.
Because of Winer, I'm not about to $pring $2K for EWQL Hollywood Strings, nor worry about hyper-fidelity, nor buy anything UAD, nor outboard equipment.
Winer's gospel seems valid via his double-blind studies.
Aside from 2 minor issues, that Winer
1) may have overly downplayed mic$ ... and/or
2) may have not downplayed room acoustics enough (bass-traps being his bread and butter, IMHO)
Winer rocks! (Even his overly-hyped bass-traps and portable vocal recording booths are oft unnecssary by his own logic! Perhaps drum studios may need his room-acoustics)
If it wasn't for Winer, I'd probably have 50K worth of gear, hire professional singers, and throw away all of YoYo's mp3 vox samples (on my Broken Forever song ... which sound great to my ears)
In Sum:
JMO: Winer has long-ago convinced me that home-producers can technically produce as well as any whore-producer ... for a fraction of the cost.
Btw, you singers/writers/producers have long-ago convinced me that you're artistically as good as the pros ... but that's another topic.)
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/22 19:48:44
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batsbrew
ok, whatever.
moral of the story is:
there's snake oil everywhere.
trust your ears.
Bat, did you view the first part of the video with the other speakers... the moral of that story was quite clear... YOU CAN NOT TRUST YOUR EARS!!! That's the theory I have been working with for probably 20+ years... I use that theory to remind myself that at any moment I am hearing what ever I am thinking about... and not what I am not thinking about... Making that realization is an act of humility... and so I simply do the best I can and try to keep my mind clear and open to options and suggestions. I found the link I posted in the OP gratifying because it reaffirmed my feelings about how we as humans are so fickle and unsuited to have strong opinions about what we think we hear. I think having this knowledge makes me a more useful technician. best regards, mike edit spelling
post edited by mike_mccue - 2010/09/22 21:31:49
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batsbrew
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Re:Audio Myths Workshop
2010/09/23 10:30:25
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that's my point exactly.
and that's why i said 'never trust a salesman.'
but don't be a dummy about the rest.
again, i said there's plenty of snakeoil out there.
your best bet, is to stick with the basics, the time-test tried and proven, look at what works for the great majority of the pros out there, IF you want those same pro results.
don't buy stupid things.
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