Audio Snap is not a snap, not by a long shot!

Sorry, I mistakenly posted this in the non-X1 forum so I'm re-posting here. Although it probably matters not as Audio Snap seems just to not work very well in any platform:



I am still not able to get a handle on Audiosnap. Haven't used it much for this very reason.

The "Clip follows project" function effect eludes me. For example: after bringing in a rhythmic and simple audio clip I turned on Audiosnap and edited the clip's tempo map. Not too much was needed to align the "beat-1" markers with their appropriate transients. They were just a bit off and it is a short clip so not too much work there, but if it were a long clip it would be quite a pain. So,first off, isn't there an automatic function to adjust a slightly inaccurate tempo map? (i.e. sliding tempo map beats to the nearest transient? - in the case above, that is exactly what I manually did to correct it.)
Here is a section showing my tempo map edited clip with the map and project tempo out of sync:

Before

Then I pressed Clip follows project (with the Measure option selected) in order to have the tempo map corrected but slightly varying tempo clip align itself to the constant project tempo. It changed but did not align itself perfectly with the project tempo!? It started wandering away after a bit. Here again is that same section after choosing Clip follows project:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WgMIfNR3TbHJuDshgX94-qIOxjpeON_wm_JZgGr6sKA?feat=directlink

Choosing the other various options for Clip follows project (i.e. Beat, Clip or Auto stretch) failed to align the clip's tempo map to the project tempo. Nor did choosing the Set Clip Tempo from Project on the Average tempo drop-down as suggested in the Help file.

In comparison: Ableton, though not flawless, imports audio, tempo maps it and aligns it to project tempo almost seamlessly if it is not too off (if you have warp enabled) with no further editing needed in some cases, certainly with the above example.

In fact, I can't get any function to work in Audiosnap to work the way I assuming it will work. I simply cannot get transient markers to line up with tempo map markers and to then line those up with project tempo delineations, even working on a simple kick-snare quarter note rhythm! It sees this clip and defaults to an average tempo of 0!?! I tell it the average tempo is 130. It starts the map at 0:2 (?) Neither "Clip follows project" or "Project follows clip" will line up beats accordingly. Quantize makes the beats further off than they were!  - All this on a simple, quarter note, kick-snare audio clip (played slightly in and out of time for the test).

What I expected:
-Input a file that is a little off time
-Audiosnap maps a tempo aligned to what it thinks are its beats
-Audiosnap then is able to align those beats and that map to a controlled project tempo map by stretching or compressing.

All this I would hope to happen more or less automatically, but I have to manually move almost every beat myself. Now, obviously the issue here is me. I just do not understand something about Audiosnap (or maybe anything). The help files give me no clue as to the basis of operation here.
I don't want to take of too much time here. Is there a book on Audiosnap? A website? A movie? A religion?!?

I am apparently missing something fundamental here and would really like to understand Audiosnap better...

Have you selected the view to transients?
Also you can get more tools, more powerful control if you select "offline".

So when you select quantize, you select "audio snap beats" and select 1/16th or whatever beats you want to quantize to. Then (and this may be your problem) you select the strength, swing, window, and offset. If you set the strength at 100% and the swing at 50, the window at 100 and the offset at 0... it should line everything up perfectly. personally I would lower the strength to the high 90s and maybe play with the swing. If you don't get what you want on the first attempt try a different note like 1/8 or 1/4 notes.

Lower threshod will add more transients but too low can add things that shouldn't be added.

So enable audiosnap, seect transient view from the dropdown, select threshold for the transients, select "clip follows project", select quantize, leave strenght at 100%, swing at 50, window at 100, and offset at 0... then play it quantized to 1/16 or whatever was default. Try starting off with threshold at 0. There is a good video on this in the Groove 3 Sonar X1 explained videos.
In the audiosnap window you can click the metronome and choose to set the transients by musical time or absolute time. You can split the clip at each transient using the button left o the metronome icon, then you can delete or manually change each one. With the button next to the on/off youcan copy to midi so that you can apply the timing to a midi file. The spit transients is cool because you can then manually move or edit each (in this case 1/16 note transients) note and when you get it just like you want it, and you like it... you can use the "estract groove" button to  extract it and then "apply groove" to apply it to other clips.

Maybe someone with more experience will chime in. I hope this helps.

Julien


Hope this helps.

Julien

I dread the problems I am sure to have but look forward to getting your help with them. I'm glad you posted, I was trying to help.

Julien

brundlefly


FWIW, I just did a quick test of Set Project from Clip in X1b246, and it's not looking too good.

It still has issues with aligning beat markers to transient markers in the clip map - you have to click and drag many that might appear to be aligned, but are not, in order to get them locked in precisely. And even then it still makes slight miscalculations in tempo that cause some beats not to be properly aligned after Set Project from Clip. Also, like SM/BAN when it was broken in 8.5.3, Set Project from Clip is not inserting tempo changes on the measure/beat lines, but is inserting them at the M:B:T times corresponding to the absolute times where the transient markers were before the Set Project was invoked. This needs to be fixed as well.

I'll continue to recommend using SM/BAN for this task for the time being. It takes a little more time, but it's more flexible, and, like so many things in life, gives better results than the automated process.

brundlefly,
you continue to be an unrelenting source of insight and assistance on this forum from what i've seen looking into this issue over these days. Thanks so much!

Yes, Audio Snap buggy indeed. X1b for me as well. Not a programmer myself, but I can't understand why the same program (Audiosnap) can on one hand locate transients, which it does fairly well on necessarily tidy audio clips, and on the other map a tempo (clip map); and yet not line the two up in any way! In each case with me, so far, I have had to go in and move the mapped beat marker to the correct transient very near by. Then, after going through the entire clip  that way (a carefully trimmed and bounced-to-clip, fairly regular, but not "perfect" tempo, simple quarter note test clip, mind you), a call to "Set project from clip" aligns the project tempo not exactly to my corrected clip map! Some beats (even the majority in my most recent experiment) are dead on when zooming full in. Some are quite not dead on. This For an automated procedure I am quite at a loss to see what logic it is following to arrive at this state. "Clip Follows Project" diverges even more for any logic I can tell! I wouldn't even bother to try and Quantize.

So... the SM/BaN process you are talking about is in the "Project" menu (Shift-N on my X1), yes? It's not an Audio Snap specific function at all. In other words, you're suggestion is to forgo AS altogether and map the project to the clip solely with SB/MaN. Have I got you right? I guess I would then have to go through that entire SM/BaN process for any other audio I imported into the project in order for it to be in sync.

There are so many calls out there on this forum from people with this or a similar issue and so many replies, some from the same users over and again, that encourage the poster into using AS for things that it claims to do yet, apparently categorically will not do with accuracy. Favoring the party line over the truth, or maybe just ignorant of it?

Thank you, though, for a refreshingly honest response.

brundlefly

So... the SM/BaN process you are talking about is in the "Project" menu (Shift-N on my X1), yes? It's not an Audio Snap specific function at all. In other words, you're suggestion is to forgo AS altogether and map the project to the clip solely with SB/MaN. Have I got you right? I guess I would then have to go through that entire SM/BaN process for any other audio I imported into the project in order for it to be in sync.

Glad to help, and yes to everything above, except that last part about what to do with additional imported clips.


SM/BAN is like Set Project from Clip in that it aligns the timeline to the audio using tempo changes without affecting how the audio plays back. So once you've done that, any new audio that came into the project would have to be stretched to fit the existing project rather than the other way around, unless you're talking about bring it in at a later time, rather than in parallel with existing audio. 


If bringing it in to the same time span, you would need to use the opposite function, Set Clip from Project, to sync it up with the timeline and existing material.

Yes, of course. How thoughtless of me! I'd be creating a new tempo map every time.
So, that puts me back at having to use AS for all following clips. Nuts! Now that I see that it doesn't work that option is not a favorable one to me.

Well, never used to have all this "smart", post-recording technology before. It does make combining MIDI composition and recorded, various source, non-click tracked audio more of a do-able thing. Or at least a desirable thing, seeing how it doesn't actually do what it says it will do, X1/AS anyway. I must say, Ableton does a nice job of it, and other platforms as well from the sound of it...

Curtsong


I find Audio Snap quite complicated.  I see the dynamics of it and how it is suppose to work.  But, it really gets in the way of my creativity in working on a project.  

I too find the time stretching and audio snapping much more efficient and invisible with Propellerheads new Reason 6.  I was blown away with it when I upgraded to Record and I still find it incredibly useful.  

But, I also love working on projects in Sonar X1.  They both function differently.  I must say that I'd like to see this feature improved upon within Sonar X1  Perhaps for X2.  

I'd rather keep my creativity flowing and have editing painless and not a chore that gets in the way of writing, arranging and producing.  

Just MHO.  

Reason doesn't have any form of audio quantise - it is one of the most requested tools since audio was introduced. As their timestretching is so good and Recycle can find transients I think they'd do a brilliant job if they went for it.
The thing is they haven't done it so they can't get any credit - especially from a post that made me think I had travelled in time due to the May dates that are in the future (why doesn't this forum show the year things are posted?).
Grum.
 
P.S. By the way, audiosnap works fine for me.
 
Edit: Ignore the year comment, it's obviously the "11" that is stuck in the date part...oops!

Audio Snap is a snap for me. Been using it extensively for years now. Works really great in 8.53. In X1, quantize audio was broken during X1a-X1b. X1c it was working finally after much ranting! X1d has audio snap issues. The same clip won't recognize the transients correctly in X1d, but in 8.53 works perfectly (except for slight variations after bounce down with different radius setting. I've found the ones that work for what I'm doing and then know the ones to save me when it acts up...always verify) In X1d I've had issues with clips that were bounced/frozen having lots of transients that show up all they way through the clip where there are clearly NO transients. Almost like an invisable transient pulse. 8.53 doesn't do this. FYI- I never use set project to clip. It's no good! Just draw you tempo map by hand zoomed in a bit with the click on an adjust as need. Or us Set Measure/Beats option. I prefer the drawing of the tempo map as it handles post adjustments better. Although if your midi exclusive and need to track to a free tempo midi clip, Set Measure/beats is you only option. Tech. support has advised me to use 8.53 for timing/tuning as the workaround till they fix X1d.

I am having the strangest issue, Audio snap is working for me but somehow it has disabled sound in an audio clip and I can't figure out how to get the sound back.  I have a track with two audio clips split and the first half of the track has a red circle with a line through it near the track number and I can not figure out what I did to cause this.  I happen to notice this after working on lining up my background vocals in another track.  I hope this is a simple oops on my part because I can't go back and rerecord that part.  I will say I like audiosnap in version X1D but please someone help me figure out what I have done so I can undo it PLEASE!!!!

Please Cakewalk, fix Audio Snap. Exporting clips from Sonar, importing to Studio One, fixing them in Studio One (since it works properly), then re-exporting and importing them is a pain and quite frankly embarrassing. 

BTW, I realize that you could in fact open both Sonar and Studio One, open their Browsers, point Studio One's Browser to Sonar's project folder and audio clips, import the audio clips via drag and drop into Studio One, correct it's timing, then drag and drop it back into Sonar via the Browser. But still, it's a pain in the butt and embarrassing. 

Please put an end to this non-sense. Thank you. 

brundlefly

the first half of the track has a red circle with a line through it near the track number

See clip muting. My hotkeys are re-assigned, but I think the default hotkey is Q (as in quiet).

Used to be, it's K now...