Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit)

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garry
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2013/12/14 16:10:51 (permalink)

Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit)

I am trying to generate MIDI notes from a kick drum track so that I can layer a sample from Session Drummer to beef up the sound. I am using X2 Producer.
 
In general, X2 works great, but sometime the transient is well ahead of the actual kick drum hit and I can't explain why. There's just a tiny bit of mic bleed. Why does it get it right so often, but then goof up other times? FWIW, when wrong, the transient is always early, usually in the 10 - 30 tick range.
 
If I don't manually check every drum hit / transient, I get occasional flams because the audio transient (and therefore generated MIDI note) is ahead of the actual kick drum hit.
 
I know I can manually move the transients to right spots before creating the MIDI notes, but are there settings somewhere that would let me tweak how audio transients are identified? I would say 95% are close enough for rock and roll, but it's that 5% that takes forever to find and fix (basically checking every drum hit in the whole track).
 
Here's a photo of what is going on. Note the transient is well ahead of the drum hit, enough for audible flamming. The MIDI note generated by AudioSnap is on the track below.
 

post edited by garry - 2013/12/14 16:25:37
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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2013/12/16 07:36:02 (permalink)
    Happened so often for me I gave up on Audiosnap.
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    Lydmann
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 14:56:44 (permalink)
    Hi
     
    Did you find out how to fix it ?
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    CJaysMusic
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 15:28:28 (permalink)
    Sometimes depending on the settings of audio snap, the transient will go where the transient begins, just like the picture you provided. The marker is set perfectly to where it begins. If you look at your picture, You'll see a flat line and then when the audio starts, that is where that marker begins. The transient is actually lined up perfectly to where the audio begins. To get it to the peak, you may have to move them manually to get it there or adjust some settings like the threshold and beats.
     
    CJ

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    brundlefly
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 15:33:46 (permalink)
    garry
    In general, X2 works great, but sometime the transient is well ahead of the actual kick drum hit and I can't explain why. There's just a tiny bit of mic bleed.
     




     
    That bleed is your answer. Audiosnap can't tell the difference between a kick transient with bleed (or maybe beater noise?) preceding it, and some other instrument with a slow initial attack. You wouldn't want to have that attack separated from the transient in other circumstances so the transient marker is placed to include it.
     
    In the absence of a built-in Audiosnap parameter you can set to ignore signals below a certain level, the workaround is to destructively gate a copy of the track (Process > Remove Silence works well for this) and extract MIDI from that gated audio.

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    #5
    Danirustic
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 15:39:49 (permalink)
    I have the same issue, the workaround I use is...
    Insert a noise gate plugin in the kick drum track and check the threshold for not loosing any kick hit.
    Process the plugin and delete it.
    You will see that the kick hits are perfectly cuted (no Little line before the hit)
     
    After that, engage audiosnap on the new procesed clip and the transients are perfect.
     
    Daniel
     
     

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 17:07:16 (permalink)
    How is it that the "threshold" control doesn't take care of this?
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 17:48:34 (permalink)
    Threshold is for including/excluding markers based on peak amplitude. It has no affect on marker placement.

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    Lydmann
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 17:55:12 (permalink)
    would bee god if that had a threshold control to , so it didnt trigger the markers to fast

    Like on the pickture , its almost no sound before the transient hits
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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 17:57:33 (permalink)
    brundlefly
    Threshold is for including/excluding markers based on peak amplitude. It has no affect on marker placement.

    Right, thanks. In that case I agree with Lydmann.
    I'll try the gating thing, though it still seems weird to me AudioSnap's algorithm doesn't handle this more intelligently. Many other solutions seem to.
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 18:14:35 (permalink)
    IIRC, an earlier implementation of MIDI extraction in SONAR before Audiosnap appeared in S6 had configurable detection parameters that worked like a gate. It would be nice to have this integrated into Audiosnap to avoid having to destructively process the audio. I suspect they deliberately left it out in an attempt to simplify Audiosnap; many users were dumbfounded by its complexity as it is.    Flexibility is the natural enemy of simplicity. 

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    garry
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 20:06:35 (permalink)
    I wasn't smart enough to figure out the gating thing, so I manually moved/checked the marker for every kick and snare hit for 20 songs (about 90 minutes of music). Took freaking forever. The end result does sound really good. If I was going for total replacement, it wouldn't have been as big an issue, but because I wanted to blend the sample and the original audio, they had to line up perfectly. The default markers caused bad flamming.
     
    The other thing is that the snare track had lots of light hits (intentional) that would have been gated out as the bleed from the first rack tom had similar volume. The gate trick would have been fine for the kick drum track. Bottom Line: spend more time getting the drum sound right before recording, don't fix it in the mix :-)
     
    FWIW, you can hear the first of our tracks on Reverb Nation. I'm mixing our second song (a hard rocker) this weekend...
     
    http://www.reverbnation.c...20-rock-and-roll-shoes
     
    post edited by garry - 2014/02/28 07:14:23
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    Joad
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    Re: Audio Transients not always lining up (early/ahead of drum hit) 2014/02/27 21:40:19 (permalink)
    garry
    I wasn't smart enough to figure out the gating thing, so I manually moved/checked the marker for every kick and snare hit for 20 songs (about 90 minutes of music). Took freaking forever. The end result does sound really good. If I was going for total replacement, it wouldn't have been a big issue, but because I wanted to blend the sample and the original audio, they had to line up perfectly.
     
    FWIW, you can hear the first of our tracks on Reverb Nation. I'm mixing our second song (a hard rocker) this weekend...
     

     


    I just spent the day doing the same thing as you garry, what a pain...
    #13
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