Audio levels in Sony Vegas

Commercial CD's are often mastered with average levels running  around -14dbfs or even -12dbfs depending on the material. DVD audio levels from video programs are made with RMS levels at about -20dbfs.

Hi Robby,
 I don't have an answer for you about the levels but it has to be something that will seem obvious once you figure it out, so I suggest you go inspect your work flow and the signal chain and find it. You can try a simple and short test tone and find out where the level does something you don't expect to happen. 
 
 With regards to the pacing of the photos; be creative. Editing on the beat can work but it can also get tiresome. Editing between beats often times can seem thoughtful and artistic. Just follow your instinct.
 
 best regards,
mike

Out of curiosity I just analyzed the smash hit of the 2013 pop charts: Royals by Lorde.
 
Average RMS Power: -11.8 dB -11.82 dB
 
A grammy award winning song:
 
Winner: Best Pop Solo Performance
Winner: Song of the Year
 
Nominated and 3rd Place: Best Pop Vocal Album

Wavehammer was my goto when doing audio tracks there - excellent compressor.
 
I recall a characteristic of Vegas metering - a sine wave will read 3db down vs a square wave, which is correct power behavior. I do not know if there is a standard for DAW metering references.
 
Audio levels on DVD are related to an SMTP standard (and Dolby too) - the average levels (dialog and such) hang around -20db to give plenty of head room for sound effects. We normally adjust the sound levels on our television based on our perception of how loud the dialog sounds. Therefore, this should be your target reference. It's not an absolute, music can be louder or softer as the production requires. Just note that if you use CD levels - those levels are way above the levels used on DVD's (and Blu-ray's too).
 
In broadcast, it should be noted that 'normalization' is a trend that is taking over in response to loud commercials and other annoyances. As broadcast material is pre-analyzed to determine its average levels - necessary attenuation will be applied to bring it into proper average level. Because of this trend, extremely loud levels won't appear any louder than a piece without such extreme level. The the less louder piece will still have capabilities for greater dynamics, whereas the loud piece has already lost them.
 
 

No, you are incorrect Mike. What you have done here is show the average rms power but failed to mention the maximum rms power. Track 8, I think is probably the loudest track on that CD. The maximum rms power is around -5.3 dB which is pretty darn loud! (which you conveniently forgot to mention) Dan actaully got me to push the album in particular that track. Although overall I agree it is one of the more quieter albums I have mastered.
 
Note how much time track 8 is up at maximum rms power, most of the time. Yes the average rms power is a useful measurement but it is averaging the rms power over the whole length of the track which is only one aspect of the level but not the whole story. It takes in the quiet sections too even if they are only few and far between but what that does is cloud the issue and gives a slightly incorrect reading.
 
So this track is damn loud and that is the end of the story. In fact I did not realise I had pushed it as far as I have. The reality is once the intro is over it is pumping and stays that way. Your average rms measurements don't actually tell the true story of the track.
 
I have to pull the channel fader down 8 dB to get that track to just reach 0db VU (on a -14 dB calibrated meter that is) and that is the real story.
 
Average rms levels don't factor (well) in how much time a signal is at maximum rms. This track is fine example. What you are doing Mike is taking the scientific or mathematical approach to this but fail in the practical view which is that track 8 is slammin for most of the track and that is where the perceived volume is.
 
Dan is happy with the level now. I wanted to master it softer believe me but he pushed me on that and insisted it match most of the stuff he was checking it against on itunes. It only just gets up there compared to the rest. I recently mastered a Hip Hip album and it is louder than 'O Hawke'! The approcah I used in measuring how loud a commercial CD is very valid and accurate. Moral of the story is don't be fooled by average rms levels. They don't really tell the true story only part of it. (In fact it is out by an average of 5db most of the time !) It is where the volume control has to be on your amplifier, that is where the action is.
 
It is easy to sit back and express scientific or mathematical views but in reality it is different surviving professionally which I have done for 34 years now, composing, producing and mastering over 60 CD's now for real clients with real money. I also teach sound engineering. I wonder how well you would do under these circumstances. I have real and practical approaches to real problems. No, it is you that is tiresome!
 
Let us get back to the OP more importantly. Well SuperG brings up a good point about rms levels sitting around -20 dB perhaps for DVD's and things. If the OP has got a track up to commercial levels then we can assume then he is mastering 10 to 12 db higher than where a DVD level might be which is a serious amount louder. No wonder he has to reach for the volume control! I have produced many soundtracks for TV and found the same thing too. I used to master them loud but when the cues were dropped into the video edit they ended up slammin. The video guys then had to bring the track right down. So for a while I was hearing loud mastered tracks turned right down which was not so good. After a while I stopped that of course and just mastered around -14 db rms or lower and just left it at that. In fact I skipped the mastering chain almost all together. (limiter at least) The music then sounded much nicer and they were not having to attentuate levels very much at all.
 
I love 4'33' too!

Again thanks for the info, I've got a brief breather today before moving on to other projects (thank you Lord for the projects!) and I hope to digest some of the amazing material above.
 
I finished the song mix and "little m" master on Friday morning but had some other pressing work come up so the singer did her own video late last night. The song is just a Karaoke download with her voice dubbed in. It is 2 steps two low for her so we had some real challenges with that but for a rush job, "we got 'er done".
 
I made a number of versions playing around with added harmonic content and increased upper mid EQ's and I favored the one without both (her voice sat down in the mix sweeter, I thought), but she favored the one with both and that is her prerogative ( I suspect she may have listened on a laptop).
 
The church will play it today from YouTube rather than a DVD.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ri_WN22eJo&feature=youtu.be
 
Thanks again so much for the help!

Mike I just noticed something. In your post #5 where you did some (Adobe Audition) analysis of the various tracks (from O'Hawke) these are the results you get for Track 8. (I only mention track 8 because as I said it was one of the louder ones)
 
Track 08
Average RMS Power: -11.68 dB     -11.92 dB
 
When you did this check what are your rms settings down below. You will see you have them set for Square wave. If you switch this to sine wave you get an average result of -8.6 instead and a max rms level of -2.3 as well. Just another place for error don't you think! It can be all rather confusing.
 
If you look at what Ian Shepherd has been saying regarding rms measurements he definitely states that you should be using sine wave for music NOT square wave. This also applies to generating test tones too. There has been some discussion as to what type of wave should be used for test tone generation and from what I have observed lately it should be a sine wave.
 
It clearly demonstrates that the average for the track is -8.6 and not -11.8 as you are suggesting. I was aiming for -7 actually when I mastered that. I can see where the -8 comes from because of the quieter sections averaged over time but for most of the track it is hitting -7.
 
Not that I am a fan of these high levels either but sometimes the clients just want it this loud.