Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update

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ben1982
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2009/03/05 18:36:19 (permalink)

Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update

Hiya,

Im very happy using Sonar 7 PE apart from when i record a section of audio using my guitar and loop it, sometimes well 99.9% of the time there is a click everytime the loop starts again, which is getting more and more frustrating. If i upgrade to Sonar 8 PE is this a glitch that doesnt occur in the newest edition ? (thats if someone else has had this problem)

or is there any other software i can use to record audio and import the audio to Sonar, i dont want to spend loads on getting pro tools or cubase, just something that i can record audio, and loop it with out a clicking sound appearing, then put it back in sonar, as i like sonar a lot as my DAW.

Im using Sonar 7 PE on a PC with windows XP, and i am recording my guitar through a Toneport UX2

Thankyou

Ben
#1

21 Replies Related Threads

    strikinglyhandsome1
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 18:43:27 (permalink)
    Do you have 'Snap to Audio Zero Crossings 'checked - click on the down arrow next to the snap to grid icon
    #2
    ben1982
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 18:58:38 (permalink)
    Hiya, thankyou for your reply, yes that box is ticked
    #3
    strikinglyhandsome1
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 19:01:44 (permalink)
    Usually if there is a pop it's because it's not at zero

    Are your loops definitely at zero?
    #4
    ben1982
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 19:04:28 (permalink)
    yes they are always on zero, it is strange because once in a blue moon there wont be any pops or clicks, but the rest of the time there are
    #5
    strikinglyhandsome1
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 19:06:48 (permalink)
    We need CJ on the case

    I had this and I'm sure it was the snap to grid thing he suggested.
    They looked alright to the naked eye but obviously they were not.
    #6
    ben1982
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 19:08:53 (permalink)
    ...........where is Cj................lol is there a way of contacting him on here ?
    #7
    strikinglyhandsome1
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 19:09:33 (permalink)
    Yeah normally you just ask a question

    And he appears
    #8
    ben1982
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 19:14:57 (permalink)
    cool, hopefully he will :-)
    #9
    strikinglyhandsome1
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 19:28:44 (permalink)
    I asked - Also, if I record a loop of say 8 bars, when it finishes and restarts it's like as if you're flicking on a switch - as if the audio was switched off and back on again. Basically, it's a tiny pop I suppose - at the start and not the end.

    CJ replied - Are your loop points at exactly 8 bars?? Did you enable it with the snap to grid activated??

    #10
    ben1982
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 19:37:15 (permalink)
    yeah, i make sure the snap to grid is on and the loop points i do exactly to .000 but doesnt change anything
    #11
    bvideo
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/05 21:33:11 (permalink)
    Ben,
    If you recorded in loop mode, this may be relevant: zoom way in on the end of the loop and see if there is a gap. If so, you are experiencing a bug in ASIO mode that has been there a while. Please add your bug report.
    Bill B.
    #12
    ben1982
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 07:23:01 (permalink)
    Hiya Bill,

    I have zoomed in on a section of audio that i have looped that has the click/pop sound and there is no gap there.

    Do you know if this a common problem this clicking popping sound ? have you used any other software eg cubase, pro tools etc if this happens in any of there products ?

    Ben
    #13
    strikinglyhandsome1
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 08:21:09 (permalink)
    Do other loops make a pop or only ones you have created?
    #14
    bvideo
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 08:30:02 (permalink)
    Ben,
    I am unable to record in loop mode without clicks on playback, but that is because of the gaps Sonar puts in the track. Those gaps are small, on the order of a few hundred samples, so I need to zoom WAY in to see it. That resolution would never show up in ".000", by the way.

    The workaround is to locate the actual file where Sonar put the recording, and put that on a track. Then it can be looped for real, with no clicking. The gaps are not really gaps in the recording, but gaps in the representation of the looped clips, which are locked at a few hundred samples too short. It happens in ASIO mode, not WDM last I checked.
    Bill B
    #15
    MurMan
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 11:22:04 (permalink)
    It's been my experience that all audio edit operations that are based on the time bar operate purely on musical or absolute time setting and will ignore the zero-crossings snap setting. This includes copying a range, the transport loop controls, loop recording, etc. Sorta makes sense because time bar edits affect multiple tracks and the concept of zero-crossing doesn't apply.

    To loop audio without clicks, you have to cut the source audio by clicking in the audio track to set the start point then ALT-dragging to the end of the section you want to loop. Sonar will select the begin/end points at zero-crossings (if you've got zero-crossing snap set). This selection can be used as click-free source material for your loops.

    Ben, I don't know if this is the cause of your problem, but it's worth pointing out. If this doesn't help and you're still having trouble, it would be good for you to describe your exact process for recording and looping.

    Murray
    #16
    yungxcraven
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 13:04:43 (permalink)
    Im having the same issue. it pops on the loop point 0 and will get worse as the loop plays. Play it back and it may or may not. It must be a timing issue.

    Sonar X1, Edirol FA-66, HP Elite, Intel Quad core i5 3.2, 8 GB ram, Blue Bluebird, FL 10, Nexus 2.
    #17
    ben1982
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 15:28:30 (permalink)
    Hi Murray,

    im sorry but i dont understand your explanation on "to loop audio without clicks" when you say "cut the source audio by clicking in the audio track to set the start point"........i dont get this........surely if you are looping something i type the exact nuber into the loop section on the tool bar.

    "then ALT-dragging to the end of the section you want to loop" im sorry i dont get this either, do you mean the ALT button on the computer keyboard ? as this does nothing for me, if i drag any audio it either dissappears if i click right on the edge of it or just moves the section of audio along if i click in the middle.

    My Process for recording and looping....

    1. For example i want to loop a 4 bar chord sequence on guitar.
    2. set the metronome for the speed i want
    3. hit record
    4. play the 4 bar chord sequence a few times in time with the metronone
    5. stop recording
    6. click on the loop section on the tool bar
    7. select the start loop point for example 1:01:000
    8. select the end loop point for example 5:01:000
    9. listen to the loop, and get an annoying pop/click sound at the start of the loop and everytime it is repeated it pops/clicks
    10. then i get fed up....haha

    hope this helps if im doing something wrong to explain what im doing

    Ben
    #18
    Chris S
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 15:28:36 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: yungxcraven

    Im having the same issue. it pops on the loop point 0 and will get worse as the loop plays. Play it back and it may or may not. It must be a timing issue.

    Are you opening the audio in an audio editor and fading to zero at the end?
    How long is the audio clip you are looping? How many tracks total are in your project?
    Just curious
    #19
    MurMan
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 16:35:57 (permalink)
    Ben,

    Thanks for detailing your process because it shows why you are getting clicks.

    The basic problem is the way that you are defining your loop. In this case, you're defining the loop using start and end points in musical time. Because this is a time bar function which applies to all tracks, as opposed to an audio track function which applies to a single track (my terminology, but I've not seen a better explanation in any documentation...) the zero-crossings are not being examined by Sonar when it sets the boundaries of your loop. Unless you are really lucky, you'll get clicks at the start and end points.

    So the answer to your first question is that the loop section in the tool bar doesn't observe zero-crossings in tracks and will cause clicks:

    im sorry but i dont understand your explanation on "to loop audio without clicks" when you say "cut the source audio by clicking in the audio track to set the start point"........i dont get this........surely if you are looping something i type the exact nuber into the loop section on the tool bar.

    Your second question is about how to do the track editing:

    "then ALT-dragging to the end of the section you want to loop" im sorry i dont get this either, do you mean the ALT button on the computer keyboard ? as this does nothing for me, if i drag any audio it either dissappears if i click right on the edge of it or just moves the section of audio along if i click in the middle.

    What you are going to do is to select your audio from the recorded audio track, paste it in to a clean audio track, then loop it. This is a little tricky because you have to get the click/key/drag/release order right. Select the track by pressing & holding the ALT key on your PC's keyboard and clicking in the track controls to the left of the audio then click in the audio waveform at your start point. Don't release the mouse button or ALT key. You should see a vertical cursor in your audio. Now select the remainder of the loop and dragging the cursor to the right. Release the mouse button when you reach the end of your loop. You should see your loop in a dark color, meaning that it is selected. If not, go back and try it again until you get it right.

    (For grins and to get more comfortable with this process, you can zoom in down to the waveform level and you'll see that the cursor always snaps to a zero crossing when you click on the audio in a selected track but doesn't when you set the cursor in the time bar.)

    Next, copy the selection with control-C, then paste it into a clean track with control-V. You can drag the new clip edge to loop it. Mute the original track and playback your new looped track.

    There are other ways of doing this. You could click at start point and split the track, then delete the lead-in. Same-o for the end point. Ususally when I post my workflow, someone chimes in with a better way which is always fine with me.

    The big take-away from this post is that snap to zero-crossings works only when editing a single track.

    Hope this helps.

    Murray

    Edit: Had the Alt key order wrong.
    post edited by MurMan - 2009/03/06 17:22:03
    #20
    ben1982
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 18:53:12 (permalink)
    I have tried what you suggested and it works for some audio examples which is great, but not all which is really strange, the first one i tried worked perfectly no pops or clicks but the second one still had the pops and clicks.

    I really appreciate the help you have given me on here, as i seem to be on the way to solving the annoying pops/clicks

    Ben
    #21
    MurMan
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    RE: Audio loop Clicks + Sonar 8 update 2009/03/06 19:26:20 (permalink)
    There's one other thing that you should be aware of, but it's hard to explain without a picture. Not knowing your technical knowledge, I'll give you a long-winded explanation.

    Imagine that your loop is a sine wave. It starts at zero, goes up, flattens out, comes back down to zero, goes down, then finally turns up and returns to zero. This is one cycle and it repeats for the duration of your loop. When Sonar snaps to a zero crossing, it can snap to a zero where the wave is going up or where the wave is going down. If the audio you select starts with the wave going up from zero and ends where the wave comes down to zero, there will be a click. This is because the wave abruptly changes direction at the loop points: it comes down to zero then changes direction and goes back up. This abrupt change in direction has high frequency content that sounds like a click.

    So there's one more step that I should have mentioned. After you paste your loop selection into the new track (and before you loop it), zoom in down to the waveform level at the start point and see if it is going up or down from zero. Then look at the end of the loop. The directions should be such that the waveform doesn't abruptly change the direction that it was going in at the end of the loop when it starts at the beginning of the next: i.e., the beginning and ending directions should be the same. I always have the beginning start at zero and go up and make the ending approach zero from below.

    Hopefully I didn't lose you in all the words. Visually it's simple to see.

    It is tricky if you need to cut off a half-cycle. Bring up the snap settings window and select Absolute Time with 1 sample resolution. (No need to close the window.) Click on the zero-crossing and split the clip, and discard the half-cycle you don't want. Be sure to change your snap settings back to whatever music time you use.

    Whew. Next time this topic comes up, let's solve it on WebEx.
    #22
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