Helpful ReplyAudio only project. Please help with tempo change.

Author
bluebeat1313
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 122
  • Joined: 2017/11/11 12:40:16
  • Status: offline
2018/12/17 01:04:33 (permalink)

Audio only project. Please help with tempo change.

Hi. I did a boo boo....
I imported 110 tempo WAV files into a 120 tempo template in Cakewalk.
Recorded whole bunch of vocal takes, but realized that project is 120... I need it to be 110... If I just change the tempo, all "loose" takes (over 100) will shift in undesired way. Is there a smart way to change tempo? Everything is audio, no midi.
 
P.S. I assume that actual audio tempo  is 110, but sits on 120 grid.
Please let me know.
 
Thank you,
Misha.
#1
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14070
  • Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 05:14:05 (permalink)
There are a lot of ways to skin this particular cat. I think the easiest solution would be just to ignore the tempo, and keep on recording...unless you have MIDI instruments or effects that absolutely need to sync to tempo. If so, there are other options that are a little more complex.
 
Craig

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#2
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 05:40:20 (permalink)
Snap the Now time at 121:01:000. Hit Shift+M for Set Measure Beat at Now, and set Measure 111, Beat 1. The initial tempo will change to 110 without affecting the absolute timing of any clips. Clips will appear to get shorter because the M:B:T scale is the fixed reference in CbB.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#3
Larry Jones
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 834
  • Joined: 2007/10/11 02:45:33
  • Location: Southern California
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 05:59:57 (permalink)
brundlefly
Snap the Now time at 121:01:000. Hit Shift+M for Set Measure Beat at Now, and set Measure 111, Beat 1. The initial tempo will change to 110 without affecting the absolute timing of any clips. Clips will appear to get shorter because the M:B:T scale is the fixed reference in CbB.


Can you explain exactly what's happening in your explanation? I'm interested, but I don't follow.

SONAR Platinum 2017.10 • CbB  Win10 • i7/2600 • 16GB RAM • Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 • NVIDIA GeForce 8400GS
#4
bluebeat1313
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 122
  • Joined: 2017/11/11 12:40:16
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 10:13:55 (permalink)
Craig, Thank you. you are right, I would usually just continue, but I have to share this project, I want it to have correct numbers.
 
brundlefly  Yes, that worked! Thank you! 
As Larry, I am a bit confused by the math here...  Is there particular equation for changing tempo in this manner?
I do not want to experiment, as I have a lot of things going in that project...
 
P.S. I wish there would be something automated, so this process is simplified by just typing in desired tempo.
 
Thank you,
Misha. 
#5
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 16:15:19 (permalink)
It's all about ratios of beats per minute. You want 110 beats to go by in the same time (one minute) that 120 beats are currently going by. But that's the same as 110 measures going by in the time of 120 measure (regardless of time signature), and it's easier to snap some number of measures without having to do unnecessary beats/measure math.
 
The +1 measure comes in because measures are are counted from 1, not zero. So when 120 measures have gone by, the Now time is at 121:01, and you want the absolute time at that point to fall on 111:01.
 
So the general rule for any tempo change is to 'Set' the measure at Current Tempo + 1 to Target Tempo + 1.
 
Note that this works for MIDI as well; the MIDI start times and durations will be recalculated to maintain their absolute timing against the new timeline tempo.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#6
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 16:30:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2018/12/17 16:33:09
bluebeat1313
P.S. I wish there would be something automated, so this process is simplified by just typing in desired tempo.



For audio, you can simplify it to 'just change the tempo' by setting the Timebase for all clips to 'Absolute' in clip properties. This causes the start times of clips to retain their absolute timing when the timeline tempo is changed, and they retain their absolute durations by default so everything will stay in sync at the recorded tempo. But you can't set MIDI clips to retain the absolute duration (only start times), so you must use the other method if there's any MIDI in the project that's in sync with the audio but not with the timeline.
 
Ultimately, I think it's easier to just use the SMBAN technique for everything, rather than messing with clip timebases.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#7
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5321
  • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
  • Location: Maryland, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 16:47:53 (permalink)
+1, Set Measure/Beat at Now is one of the most useful tempo mapping tools there is (manual, but quick), and one of my biggest gripes with other DAWs, since few have anything even close.
 
When working with SM/BAN, due to the "Absolute" issue, it helps me to think of it like a vise (needing a start anchor and end anchor) to "squish" everything proportionally inside of those boundaries. When just changing the start tempo, things start to scoot on you.

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#8
bluebeat1313
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 122
  • Joined: 2017/11/11 12:40:16
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 17:26:57 (permalink)
brundlefly, thank you for explanation!
This is a very important post, I hope it stays in my "post history" when new forum is introduced. This has to settle right in my head :)
 
One  last thing please. This round, the whole song was less than 120 Measures so when I went to  121:01 the whole thing was to the left ...  if next time I have to correct tempo assuming similar 120->110 but song would be longer, lets say 140 measures,  I would still go to  121:01 ?
 
Thank you.
#9
Jimbo 88
Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1828
  • Joined: 2007/03/19 12:27:17
  • Location: Elmhurst, Illinois USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 17:36:23 (permalink)
I really like brundlefly's solution.  I think I got how it worked, curious to see if I could apply that to other situations,
 
What I would have done is locked all the audio into place, making sure all the tracks were in"absolute" mode and not musical.  If I'm not mistaken you can select all the tracks then contrl-alt and change all the tracks at once,  then you can change the tempo at will.
 
This forum is so cool for learning things.

Cakewalk By Bandlab
Cubase 9.5 Pro
Windows 7 64 Bit   Core i7-8700   32 Gig Ram 3.20ghz  
RME Fireface 400 Audio Card
Behringer FCA 1616
Sweetwater Creation Station
 
#10
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 18:40:27 (permalink)
bluebeat1313
This round, the whole song was less than 120 Measures so when I went to  121:01 the whole thing was to the left ...  if next time I have to correct tempo assuming similar 120->110 but song would be longer, lets say 140 measures,  I would still go to  121:01 ?



No, the tempo that gets changed is the initial tempo at 1:01:000 that will pertain as far out as your project goes until a different tempo is encountered. Note, however that the way SM/BAN works, it will also enter a matching tempo at the Measure/Beat that you set to act as an anchor for setting other points before or after to get perfect sync between the actual audio tempo and the timeline. So long as the project will remain at that tempo, you can just leave it, but in other use cases, you might want to delete that extra tempo (see View > Tempo). Since it matches the initial tempo, deleting it won't have any effect.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#11
bluebeat1313
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 122
  • Joined: 2017/11/11 12:40:16
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/17 20:17:12 (permalink)
brundlefly,
 
Thank you!
#12
Rbh
Max Output Level: -52 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2349
  • Joined: 2007/09/05 22:33:44
  • Location: Indiana
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/18 04:28:46 (permalink)
I'm basically a real time player - but this is pretty wicked clever. There are times when this tip will be a life saver -  thanks for the great lesson.

I7 930 2.8 Asus PDX58D
12 Gig
Appollo
CbB, Sonar Pro, Reaper, Samplitude, MixBuss
 Win7 Pro

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=902832
#13
Blogospherianman
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 126
  • Joined: 2015/07/10 15:58:12
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/18 16:45:17 (permalink)
Another way to achieve this is by slip editing the beginning of each audio take to start at zero then Bounce to clip to make the slip edit permanent. Then you can simply change to the correct tempo without the clips moving around. It basically anchors them to zero. I like using SM/BAN as well. So many ways to do things in Cakewalk. Always interesting to see all the methods of skinning those poor cats.
#14
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14070
  • Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/18 17:50:38 (permalink)
In another thread, I said: "This forum was always a selling point for Sonar because it provided a first-class support system. When I run into problems with other software, not having a forum like this is problematic."
 
People like Brundlefly and scook (and so many others) are why this forum is so useful. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#15
phil5633
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 154
  • Joined: 2005/08/13 17:04:29
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/18 19:33:04 (permalink)
+1

BillP - SONAR Platinum, MOTU 828mkII, Focusrite 18i8, Akai MPK49, Windows 10 x64, Core i7-6850K 3.60GHz, 32GB DDR4, ASUS X99-DELUXE--II MB, AMD R7 250 GPU,  Behringer ADA8000, dbx 386,  (2) Aphex 207, (2) ART TPS II, Presouns E5/E8, Avantone MixCubes, Presonus Monitor Station v2
#16
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re: Audio only project. Please help with tempo change. 2018/12/18 20:13:32 (permalink)
Yes definatly we learn more here than anywhere else. This was my "tip of the year" Thanks Dave. I "got it" right away,, brilliant. 
I often have live recordings and they are always set at the default 120 BPM. 
It's nice to at least get the tempo close before mucking about adding any tracks, midi or audio. 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#17
Jump to:
© 2019 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1