Helpful ReplyAudio tracks with wide variation in RMS

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robbyk
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2016/02/11 14:30:28 (permalink)

Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS

I want to compile a CD from tracks (Cakewalk projects) whose songs (final mixes) vary widely in their RMS. All songs were recorded here in 8.5 over the years. I am not a fan of squashed audio, so they are very dynamic and I used a limiter (ozone) only to bring up the final audio to a peak of -0.5 and then export at CD quality.
 
Specifically, at their lowest (ie softest), the RMS is -16.9 and the loudest song has an RMS (from SPAN) of -11.6. I compiled these separate projects onto a CD using Sonar's burn an audio CD. Now when I drive to town to have a listen, my wife is turning up or down the radio volume to hear the quiet songs (solo) vs. the louder ones (band songs). I guess you can kind of think e.g. Neil Young album, quiet piano or solo guitar followed by rockin' with Crazy Horse. But I never have to fiddle with the volume on his CDs.
 
How do I level them out? Just volume automation or bring the loud songs down?
 
I have ozone and IK t-racks c-s thingy and pyro but I have never used these to compile a bunch of tracks together. Would I use these programs (if so, I'd like to use the IK but pyro is OK, just on another pc with XP), or does this indicate I need to go back to my mixes and either squash the loud ones or raise the RMS on the soft ones?
 
Or maybe this indicates I have done something else incorrectly in my mixes?
 
I hope I am asking this correctly because I'm getting no idea from my google of youtube searches on compiling an audio CD.
 
Thanks kindly for any help or references, I am not doing this to create a red book spec'd cd, just my own songs over the years for fun.
 
 

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batsbrew
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/11 15:09:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2016/02/11 16:04:29
this is called mastering.
 
 

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/11 15:20:40 (permalink)
batsbrew
this is called mastering.
 
 


Thanks for the reply.
 
Yes I know that it is largely a mastering issue (or possibly reworking some mixes), so is it too complex for me? Maybe I should I just fold it up and forget it...
 
Again, I'm not creating a red book spec'd CD at this point, I just want to play around with my own music with the tools I have e.g. pyro, IK, etc. and level out some tunes volume or RMS-wise.
 
That is why I am curious, how do the pros do it? Is it additional limiting or envelopes, or both?
 
If it is impossible for me, then OK.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/11 15:52:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2016/02/11 16:04:37
The moment you are talking rms levels you should be also talking VU meters and ones that are real preferably with needles etc.  But there are some good alternate VST'as though such as the Klanghelm meter.
 
I usually end up doing all this fine tuning in a separate editing software like Adobe Audition etc.. Cool Edit Pro..
 
Firstly because I use the K system when I create an album all my tracks are at the same rms level but when there are variations eg from another pre mastered album this is what I do:
 
I open all the tracks up in an editor and then put a VU meter over the tracks one by one.  Now with a VU meter you have to give it a reference level.  eg a good mastering level might be -12 dB FS = 0dB VU.  So when the tracks are sitting around -12 dB rms wise the needle is just swinging nicely up to the 0 dB VU mark.
 
If a track is low it wall fall short. eg a -16 dB rms track will only make -4 on the meter now.  So what I do is hard limit the whole track so that no peaks go over -5 db.  You will find in a low level track like this that not many peaks are hitting that mark anyway.  Then I add 4 dB to the whole track.  The hard limiting prevents any odd peaks from preventing you from adding 4 dB to the whole track.  You certainly wont hear it.  Then the track comes up to a nice 12 dB FS rms level and the peaks are only hitting -1dB which is good for any conversions to mp3.  And now showing 0 dB VU like the others.
 
Loud tracks are going to swing the needle over.  So a loud track eg mastered to -10 dB FS rms will push the needle up to +2 dB VU most of the time.  So I just subtract 2 db of gain from the whole track.  Dont sweat any peaks now because you are lowering the tracks level.  Now the track will be at -12 dB FS rms and the needle should be just swinging nicely up to 0 dB VU like the others.
 
Do this and you will be going a long way to all your tracks being very even in volume and level all the way through. Burn a CD and check.
 
The only thing to watch out for is tracks that only have say guitar and vocal in them.  Even if you get them swinging nice up to the 0 dB VU mark you will find those tracks will sound a little loud compared to the band tracks.  I generally shave off another 2 dB off those types of tracks and then they sit nice against the band tracks.
 
Don't let anyone tell you that adding or subtrcating gain from final mixes is altering the quality.  That is rubbish and I defy anyone to hear the difference in an A/B test.  Remember Cool Edit or Audition is working in 32 bit/64 bit in the background which is often double the 16 bit resolution that the actual track is finally mixed at.  Even a 24 bit track being gain changed at 32 bit resolution won't create any issues either.
 
You need VU meters to do this.  Your peak metering is useless in this mode of operation.  And rms meters that are sitting way down on the scale are also useless.  You need something like the Klanghem meter that is swinging right up to the 0 db VU mark when the track is at the right level.  Then you really see what is going on.

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/11 15:56:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2016/02/11 17:04:41
Ok .... I'm gonna take a stab at an answer after reading this on the fly today....I always enjoy reading the posts on the forums and to be honest....i usually just say thanks for sharing the info and not add too much of my novice knowledge as I am still learning so much of the recording/mixing/mastering trade on my lil MC7 (thats music creator 7....the little bro of your big Sonar space ships most are using around here...lol..) setup.   I am soaking it up like Sponge-Bob on crabby patty crack....love this stuff....man the time fly's....ok....so to it now.
  I would think you could import all your songs(tracks) into a project .... play em all at same time and open your mixer and level them (master vol fader) out with compression (if/as needed)....listen to a bit of each on your master bus as they play.  Once ya think ya got em pretty equal.... mix(render?) each song down as a .wav file or whatever format your gonna burn to a cd.....then listen to each of those .wavs a bit before burning the cd to assure you got it dialed in.   
 That said.....there's likely another path to this result im overlooking.   It's pretty basic if your not trying to change all the eq and mix of your material i guess.   ?   appreciate further feedback....just my .02cents at moment  :o)

 
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/11 16:01:18 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
You need VU meters to do this.  Your peak metering is useless in this mode of operation.  And rms meters that are sitting way down on the scale are also useless.  You need something like the Klanghem meter that is swinging right up to the 0 db VU mark when the track is at the right level.  Then you really see what is going on.

 Jeff
 
Thanks kindly for the info, I have long wanted to get the Klanghelm meters largely based on yours and other expert advice in these forums.
 
I have been using SPAN with the RMS and Crest Factor as a guide, but I think I should take the additional step as you suggest. No I know I will get it now :)
 
This is very helpful and I thank you. Perhaps I should get into the whole KMS metering scheme of things. It is really very interesting.
 
I think this is going to be fun and a great exercise in increasing my overall skills (be that as they may be).
 
Batsbrew,
 
Thanks again for your post and based on your suggestion, I will do additional searches tonight on "mastering" as opposed to compiling a CD.

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robbyk
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/11 16:04:18 (permalink)
BASSJOKER
 I would think you could import all your songs(tracks) into a project .... play em all at same time and open your mixer and level them (master vol fader) out with compression (if/as needed)....listen to a bit of each on your master bus as they play. 



Well, that is a great idea along what I thought I would do. Place them all in a track or in the IK software and then just use automation to bring down the loud songs.
 
I really don't want to add compression as I'd like to keep the dynamics of the song.
 
But I think now I will go the metering route first...

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/12 14:10:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2016/02/12 14:33:17
Just put all your songs in one project.  Use Exclusive Solo to switch back and forth between your songs.  Pick your desired output level and either use the limiter and meter in Ozone to get each of your songs to be as close sonically and meter-wise to what you are shooting for, or use automation on the master bus to level match what you need.  
 
If you have ozone and sonar, you have what you need to get pretty close. 

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/12 14:44:43 (permalink)
sven450
Just put all your songs in one project.  Use Exclusive Solo to switch back and forth between your songs.  Pick your desired output level and either use the limiter and meter in Ozone to get each of your songs to be as close sonically and meter-wise to what you are shooting for, or use automation on the master bus to level match what you need.  
 
If you have ozone and sonar, you have what you need to get pretty close. 


Good timing Sven (my Grandfather's name), I was just exploring that, I have them in one project and I was just now going to pick up the Klanghelm meters because I've always really wanted them (I know I don't need them per se and I should just get to work and make music but I am curious and they are inexpensive). Then like you say, I surely have all the tools I need (and more) and the whole idea is to have fun with this and learn some good stuff.
 
So you are suggesting output level and/or automation to match levels.
 
Well thanks again Sven and to all the above for your time and wonderful guidance in this. I really wanted to know how the pros tackle this (it must be very common) even as I charge in willy-nilly with my own notions.
 
Very, very helpful to all and I appreciate it. I am confidant the next time I drive my wife into town, she won't be reaching for the volume knob every three minutes :)

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/12 14:50:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2016/02/13 10:55:14
My initial suggestions were based on all the mixes being completely mastered.  Only changing level.  Adding more dynamics processing to a final mastered mix is not a good idea.
 
But on re reading the OP I see if gentle limiting was used on these tracks only to prevent clipping then the tracks are basically unmastered I guess.
 
In that situation Bats is more correct here by saying mastering is actually required.  By that I mean you could in fact use EQ, compression and limiting.  All three of these stages can effectively alter the rms level of a track so then one could be mastering in full all the tracks and adjusting all the tracks that way.
 
One good bit of advice I learned from a great mastering engineer is group all of the tracks together that you intend to put on te CD.  Choose one track out of all of them first and master that one.  Choose a track that has everything in it.  Everything going for it.  Max instruments etc.. Biggest sound etc..  Choose a final reference mastered level and master the track to that level.
 
Then as you master all the rest have this mastered track available in your mastering for the other tracks so that you can switch any of the tracks against it.  It will keep levels and tone more consistent over all the other tracks.  Don't forget good reference tracks either as a comparison.

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/12 15:11:49 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
 
One good bit of advice I learned from a great mastering engineer is group all of the tracks together that you intend to put on te CD.  Choose one track out of all of them first and master that one.  Choose a track that has everything in it.  Everything going for it.  Max instruments etc.. Biggest sound etc..  Choose a final reference mastered level and master the track to that level.
 

 Yes this is exactly what I was doing by making the rough CD. Your perception is amazing.
 
Your advice is the key! Now I know to take the rowsin' song which is the full Robby K Band and get it's level right where I want it. Then match the others (mostly lonesome hippie cowboy singer solo songwriter movin' on the down road sing-alongs) to it. That is exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks big-time.
 
I have both mixes and small "m" masters of each song, so if there is substantial additional limiting to do, I want to go back to the masters for that and check with SPAN and the Klanghelm meter. Then I suspect if there is still a little discrepancy when all the small "m" mastered songs are lined up, I can use automation to match levels.
 
I turn 63 on Sunday and all the help is a wonderful b-day gift :)
 
Now to get to it.

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/12 15:34:30 (permalink)
I should further explain, my little "m" masters are simply placeholders for now. I enjoy learning and workin' on this; gives me something to look forward to each day as a break in the action.
 
The big "M" mastering is in Danny Danzi's hands (God willing) when I am done with the mixes of all the songs.

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 02:19:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2016/02/13 10:55:05
A few ways to do this. Depending on the situation, all the methods above are perfect. Me personally, I go for simple. For example, I have a few strange methods that I use because I am NEVER happy mastering in one program. Something is always missing from one, some creature comfort or meter missing from another....I so need to team up with someone and create the ultimate mastering program!
 
Anyway, when I get done mastering songs, the last step is the limiter and sample rate conversion. When I'm in Sonar, I load up all the tracks like Bassjoker and Sven told you, use the fader on each channel to make them all sound the same volume with the one before, then I run a limiter on each song so that the limiter literally treats each song properly instead of one limiter doing everything. This way I can literally mess with individual volumes as well as thresholds and attack/release on each limiter.
 
When I'm done I can burn to CD right in Sonar or I can export each track individually and I'll be nice and level. I do watch my meters and try to get things as close as possible. However, certain songs will react differently depending on what instruments were recorded. You can get a clean song WAY louder than a song with distorted guitars even if the meters tell me things are the same.
 
So in THAT case, the meters will not help me if my ears tell me different. I just about never rely on the meters other than to tell me I've clipped something or gone above -0.3 or -1 when they are my targets. I sincerely think people watch this stuff way too closely. That's just me and in no way is that a slight on anyone. I don't have any Grammy's or anything, so maybe I'm not one to listen to.
 
I like doing things by ear and I don't like to hard limit unless I have to. Keep in mind, these songs are already mastered that I'm working with here in this scenario...so I've already manually leveled the peaks and compressed/eq'd etc. Hope this helps, Robbie! Looking forward to working with you when you are ready. :)
 
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 03:02:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2016/02/13 10:55:03
I had a friend who had similar issue and sent me 30 of his songs to take a look at. Noise reduction was one thing, but after that step I realized most of his material fell into one of two bins so made an Ozone preset to handle each scenario but I still had the issue of the variances in what he was sending me. The simplest solution for his material (also a "just to play in the car" type of situation) was to normalize each file to -3dB prior to the mastering pass with Ozone so that the Ozone settings required the least amount of tweaking for each. In hindsight I found the normalization pass effective for the quickest workflow. For his stuff, the workflow I ended up using was:
  1. Noise Reduction and normalize to -3dB. Saved this to new file (destructive edit).
  2. Added Ozone and loaded appropriate preset for the genre.
  3. As the presets matured, I ended up spot-checking obvious portions of each song to adjust as needed (I used 4-bands for both presets).
I am not sure if the above will be applicable to you, but wanted to throw it out there. My friend's material had very consistent frequency content and dynamic ranges used, which made the situation a lot simpler for me.
 
This is definitely not a high detail/quality situation (as his material needed remixing anyway), but more a means to get consistent levels for the material he had.

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 11:08:18 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
 
Anyway, when I get done mastering songs, the last step is the limiter and sample rate conversion. When I'm in Sonar, I load up all the tracks like Bassjoker and Sven told you, use the fader on each channel to make them all sound the same volume with the one before, then I run a limiter on each song so that the limiter literally treats each song properly instead of one limiter doing everything. This way I can literally mess with individual volumes as well as thresholds and attack/release on each limiter.
 
-Danny


Well I am blessed for one thing, I am just an ol' geezer in the snow and I don't have clients depending on me for this kind of thing. I am more than happy leaving it with the pros :)
 
However, my mission was accomplished by all the helpful replies above, all of them! Thanks much!
 
I now can burn a leveled CD so that I can listen properly (usually in the car). Now I can evaluate my mixes over time.
 
Why I like foolin' around with Ozone and with this kind of thing (again, very small "M" mastering) is it often exposes a weakness or flaw in my mix that for whatever reason, I did not pick up. If I find something that works well be it EQ, compression, exciters, etc., then I have cause to ask why and go back and work on the mix some more. In the mix, I tend to know what I am doing. It only took 10 years, but I think I am getting there :)
 
So thanks to all once again and Danny, yes, Monday I forge on and I will have good material to send you, hopefully in the summer!

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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 12:01:35 (permalink)
mettelus
I had a friend who had similar issue and sent me 30 of his songs to take a look at. Noise reduction was one thing, but after that step I realized most of his material fell into one of two bins so made an Ozone preset to handle each scenario but I still had the issue of the variances in what he was sending me. The simplest solution for his material (also a "just to play in the car" type of situation) was to normalize each file to -3dB




Just for your head, I just wanted to explain why normalizing might fail. I'm glad it worked for you but here's the problem....
 
You're only bringing the hottest point of each file to -3. So if you are averaging -12 and have one peak that goes to -4, though the entire file will raise a bit, only that peak at -4 will get raised to -3. It is pretty rare to have a peak that much higher in a file, so I'm explaining that to you in a worst case scenario and am exaggerating a bit. But that's what normalizing can do in a negative way for some files and why you have to be careful while using it. Only the highest peaks turn out to be the target range. This leaves you with volume inconsistencies still and possible rogue peaks choosing your destiny. So just be careful. Loads of peaks in a file, consider another method instead of normalizing. :)
 
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mettelus
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 15:51:36 (permalink)
+1, I definitely agree with you on this and my original thinking was more to make "consistency" for the compressor thresholds in the presets. In this case (which is admittedly quite unique), identical hardware and even tone was used end-to-end so variations were not as extreme as one might expect.
 
Ironically, this was a situation that actually backfired on me... originally I had a couple files sent to me that I did this with in the hopes I could get him interested in using a DAW to help him mix (each one needed serious mix help). I ended up getting the gambit of his wife's favorites, and that is as far as it went.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 16:38:09 (permalink)
Normalisation is not a process used in mastering at all for the reasons Danny mentioned.  I don't hard limit a whole track either often.  It is often just a few rogue peaks that are creating the issue so I tend to look at the whole track and there will often be a level where most peaks reside to and then the rogue peaks are obvious and they can be sorted individually.
 
I still feel a decent editor is hard to beat for this surgical type of work.  I find fixing a few things here and there in an editor is way better than applying a whole process over a track when it is just not necessary.
 
Personally I feel mastering is not a seat of the pants thing either.  It is one area where exact metering is almost a necessity.  I use three types of metering too.  RMS or VU metering, LUFS and DR range metering.  They are all important.  You will get perfectly consistent masters that way.  Not with your ears alone.  Every decent mastering studio I have been into has extensive metering and the great mastering engineers all use it.
 
A track may be 1 dB lower than the rest and your ears may not pick it up. You may suspect something and not be sure.  An accurate VU reading will show it to you in a second though.  Looking at the bottom end of your on mix on a spectrum analyser can also show up some interesting stuff too.

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gswitz
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 17:10:03 (permalink)
I use an EBU128 meter to measure average loudness.

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batsbrew
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 20:17:59 (permalink)
there is a touchy-feely aspect of deciding which songs sound louder or softer compared to the rest....
 
it's hard to explain, and even harder to show clearly why it is that way.
 
it's good practice,
to watch the meters.
 
but at some point, you should be make gut decisions,
not based on any vu or led
 
so, it may be that in those collection of songs,
there is clearly one that should be the loudest,
and you create the song order, based on building up to the loudest song,
and gently sloping away from it, in order of song.
 
point is, have a strategy

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 20:39:29 (permalink)
One thing for sure is the tracks with less in them eg two or three parts at most will sound louder even when the meters show the same reading.  That does require a gut feeling.  It is one of the very few things that the meters don't show.  From experience I usually drop them by about 2 to 3 dB.
 
The biggest and loudest biggest track should be the loudest thing on the album. That is why you master it first.  With big loud tracks I might even squeeze another 1 dB out of them  (compared to the average overall level) from the limiter so they have that impact.

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#21
robbyk
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 22:59:06 (permalink)
batsbrew
so, it may be that in those collection of songs,
there is clearly one that should be the loudest,
and you create the song order, based on building up to the loudest song,
and gently sloping away from it, in order of song.
 
point is, have a strategy



Excellent point #1

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#22
robbyk
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/13 23:00:06 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
The biggest and loudest biggest track should be the loudest thing on the album. That is why you master it first.  With big loud tracks I might even squeeze another 1 dB out of them  (compared to the average overall level) from the limiter so they have that impact.




Excellent point #2

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#23
Jeff Evans
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Re: Audio tracks with wide variation in RMS 2016/02/14 01:11:01 (permalink)
The track order is another whole story. Once the tracks are mastered the order is critical.
 
Here are a few tips:
 
Avoid consecutive tracks that are in the same key if you can.
 
Avoid consecutive tracks that are very similar in tempo and feel.
 
Try as Bats says to create a whole story in terms of what the tracks are all saying and doing one by one.
 
The big number does not have to be two thirds down the line either.  That is a bit old fashioned.  I have mastered CD's where it was second or first even and it still sounded great!  But saving it for a little while isn't bad either.
 
Watch where the quieter tracks are in relation to louder band tracks.  Ensure the quiet tracks dont jump out at you. They can if they are too loud.
 
Sometimes the client really knows and wants the order, sometimes they have some idea and sometimes they don't have a clue and you need to help them.
 
Burn several CD's with different track orders and live with them for a while.  You will soon know the orders that are not good.

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