Helpful ReplyAudioSnap And Ableton 'Set 1.1.1 here'

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Frank Edwards
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2012/08/22 04:51:52 (permalink)

AudioSnap And Ableton 'Set 1.1.1 here'


Hi All,

After getting the latest copy of Computer Music magazine (CM182), I decided to try and follow their 'Samples' tutorial in Sonar X1 to try and expand my knowledge and try something a little different from the norm.  However, I've been having a few problems when it comes to the 'Unsynced' sample....  

In Ableton Live they make it look so easy with setting the first transient to the start of the clip and placing/locking the other transients to 1/8th notes....




In Sonar, when I enable AudioSnap, set the transients and quantize to 1/8th notes the first transient is ignored...





I could first go through the process of splitting the clip on the first transient and then processing the clip transients, but this seems a little long winded...





Is there a better way of doing this?  I know in the tutorial they position the transients manually, but if possible I would like to use the available tools as the clip will not always be so small.

Also, when I've finished and bounced to clip, I've had problems with the 'Offline' 'Radial Mix' and 'Radial Mix Advanced' settings whereby they seem to reposition the first transient?

I have to say that there doesn't seem to be one definitive guide to AudioSnap, not in the 'Sonar X1 Power' book, Groove 3 or the 'Sonar X1 Advanced Workshop' videos, and as for when you use the various rendering modes it seems to be down to 'suck it and see'?

Sonar X1 Producer Expanded (build 434) - x64
Windows 7 Professional x64
Intel Core 2 Quad Q8200 2.33 GHz, 4.0 GB RAM
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ATI HD 4770
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#1
Frank Edwards
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Re:AudioSnap And Ableton 'Set 1.1.1 here' 2012/08/22 09:00:47 (permalink)
Also, I forgot to add that I'm having trouble with the 'Clip Follows Project' action as with all the transients set to 1/8th notes and the 'Beat' option selected...





I get the following result when I select it...






Anyone have any ideas as to why the clip 'shrunk-up'? - I thought the transients would be locked to their positions as shown in the first screen shot irrespective of changes in the project's BPM?

Sonar X1 Producer Expanded (build 434) - x64
Windows 7 Professional x64
Intel Core 2 Quad Q8200 2.33 GHz, 4.0 GB RAM
640GB HD
ATI HD 4770
M-Audio Audiophile 2496
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SToons
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Re:AudioSnap And Ableton 'Set 1.1.1 here' 2012/08/23 08:01:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Frank Edwards


Is there a better way of doing this?  I know in the tutorial they position the transients manually, but if possible I would like to use the available tools as the clip will not always be so small.

Also, when I've finished and bounced to clip, I've had problems with the 'Offline' 'Radial Mix' and 'Radial Mix Advanced' settings whereby they seem to reposition the first transient?

I have to say that there doesn't seem to be one definitive guide to AudioSnap, not in the 'Sonar X1 Power' book, Groove 3 or the 'Sonar X1 Advanced Workshop' videos, and as for when you use the various rendering modes it seems to be down to 'suck it and see'?

Slide the first transient marker to the first transient (when you mouse over the transient marker it should be labeled 0 ). Slip edit the beginning of the clip so that it starts at the first transient, at the marker. Sonar has likely interpreted an incorrect tempo for the clip. Click the Edit Clip Map button. Slide 1:1 to the first transient if it isn't already (it should be); if you mouse over it should display Marker 0 at 1:1. Then, while holding the Ctrl key slide one of the transient markers to the correct position (slide it to the correct beat), for example slide 1:2 to the second beat . This should pretty much align all following markers correctly thuout the whole file so you don't have to set all markers manually. You may have to play the file a few times and watch for where a specific beat occurs. If you can locate the first beat of the second measure, for example, hold the Ctrl key and slide marker 2:1 to that transient marker (it should snap) and then everything else should now line up. If there are any extra beats showing at the end (for example, since you have a two measure clip showing, if you can see a marker showing 3:1 before the end of the clip), hold the Ctrl key while sliding 2:4 to the correct transient marker and the extraneous measure markers should disappear. If 2:4 is already lined up, hold the Ctrl key while sliding it away from and then back to the proper transient where it was previously. Now if you select Clip Follows Project it should work. Then slide the clip left, over to the beginning of the measure. You may then have to slip edit the right side of the clip to align to a measure. If any unwanted markers appear before 1:1 (or at the end), double-click them if they are red and they should disappear. You can then click the Edit Clip Map button again to close it.
 
Edited to fix a bug.
post edited by SToons - 2012/08/23 10:44:38
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Frank Edwards
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Re:AudioSnap And Ableton 'Set 1.1.1 here' 2012/08/23 10:53:59 (permalink)

Hi SToons,


Thank you for the reply. I followed your steps with the following outcome...


1. Before I started I set the project BPM to the BPM of the clip.


2. Before enabling AudioSnap, slip edit the beginning of the clip so that it starts at the first transient. Then slide the clip left, over to the beginning of the measure. - This all went fine.

3. Enable AudioSnap. Sonar has likely interpreted an incorrect tempo for the clip. Click the Edit Clip Map button. Slide 1:1 to the first transient if it isn't already (it should be). Then, while holding the Ctrl key slide one of the transient markers to the correct position (slide it to the correct beat) etc.  - This all went well, of all the videos and articles I've read I've never seen anything about using the Ctrl key!


4. You can then click the Edit Clip Map button again to close it. Now if you select Clip Follows Project it should work. - It did!


5. I now bounced to a clip and everything looks fine...






Until I reset the projects BPM back to the original project value and the clip doesn't follow...





Sonar X1 Producer Expanded (build 434) - x64
Windows 7 Professional x64
Intel Core 2 Quad Q8200 2.33 GHz, 4.0 GB RAM
640GB HD
ATI HD 4770
M-Audio Audiophile 2496
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SToons
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Re:AudioSnap And Ableton 'Set 1.1.1 here' 2012/08/23 11:11:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
There's no need to bounce to clip. Doing so disables the ability to continue matching tempo changes. If you leave it where you were (after Step 4, before Step 5) it should match any tempo changes automatically. In other words, as long as there is need to adjust the project tempo leave it in AudioSnap mode and don't bounce.
 
The Help file mentions the Ctrl key under "Editing a clip's tempo map" if you go down to where the exclamation marks are and check "Note 2".
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Frank Edwards
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Re:AudioSnap And Ableton 'Set 1.1.1 here' 2012/08/23 16:26:24 (permalink)
Apologise! - As they say RTFM! 

Thanks Stoons, I had totally forgotten about the help file which does cover AudioSnap in a fairly detailed way and seems to answer most of my questions.
What I had forgotten to do in my steps, was to apply 'Groove Clip Looping' prior to changing the BPM.


Sonar X1 Producer Expanded (build 434) - x64
Windows 7 Professional x64
Intel Core 2 Quad Q8200 2.33 GHz, 4.0 GB RAM
640GB HD
ATI HD 4770
M-Audio Audiophile 2496
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SToons
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Re:AudioSnap And Ableton 'Set 1.1.1 here' 2012/08/23 18:49:11 (permalink)
If you intend to loop the file then setting up the Groove Clip Looping is probably a good idea. Generally speaking I leave mine in AudioSnap mode and often never change that or I'll Bounce to Clip and then freeze the AudioSnap track and Groove Clip Loop the bounced track. The thing is I often like to mess with the AudioSnap version later to add variations to the original loop: move a snare, add extra kicks or hits etc. You can make an entire drum track from a single loop.
 
I didn't mention the Help file to suggest you RTM but since you mentioned the Ctrl key I figured I'd point out the -very small- mention of the Ctrl key, not to mention the "double-clicking on Markers to unlock them" etc. They aren't exactly obvious.
 
Anyways, glad you have everything sorted out.
 
Cheers.
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