gbowling
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Audiosnap x3
I'm trying to learn/understand how to do something with audiosnap, I've looked at a number of videos and help info but still don't have a good procedure to do this in x3. The help and videos I've looked at seem to have a bit different menus and info as to what X3 has, or maybe I'm just not understanding how to do it. Here's my problem. I have 10 wav files all from the same song, but 5 wavs were recorded at one time and the other 5 at a different time. Long story as to how this happened.. At any rate. There is one track that is the same on both recordings, so there are really only 9 tracks. I import the first 5 tracks into X3, all good and in sync. I import the 2nd 5 tracks, which now need to be moved in sync with the first 5 tracks. Since one track from each set of 5 is the same, it should be easy to turn on transients on both of these tracks (they should be the same) and use that to move the 2nd set of tracks in line with the first 5 tracks. It's similar to the help I've seen of moving a multi-miked drum track in time with the rest of a song. However, it really should be even easier, there shouldn't be any stretching or modifying of the audio, just moving the 2nd set of 5 tracks it to match the other 5 tracks. I've manually done it successfully, but it's been a pain to do. There has to be an easy way to do this with audiosnap especially since one of the tracks from each import are the same. I'm just not getting anything to work. Any help would be appreciated.
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 06:49:21
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So both set of tracks are the same tempo? If they were just moved to the right spot the would all line up perfectly for the entire song (which would mean no stretching like you said)? If this is the case you do not need to use audiosnap for that. Just the Snap to Grid feature which is another function altogether and significantly easier to use. I'm going to assume that you are somewhat new to the program (if not my apologies) and it sounds like you are trying to line the tracks up one at a time which indeed could be laborious and sloppy. So multi select the clips before moving them in place (press Shift + A to clear any previous selections the hold Ctrl and click on each clip you are moving into place... this will select them and make it so you can move them all at once). Now you if you line one up they are all lined up. Once you are done this it would probably be a good idea to trim down or stretch out the clips so the are the EXACT same length as the other tracks. That way if you accidentally move something and don't want to Undo (like you didn't realize it and you;ve already done a bunch of other stuff) you can just move them back with Snap To Grid turned on. Just select all the clips (Ctrl + A) set the now time to where you want to trim them down to press S (split) and now all your clips start at the exact same time. There is another function involving Snap to Grid you might find useful but I forget the exact name of it or which menu it is under (I think it is under the right click menu after you've selected a clip). It basically puts a little marker/flag thing on the clip wherever you want and now instead of the Snap To or By function going by the start of the clip it will treat that flag as the start of the clip. The reason I bring this up is you could mark the very first beat on each clip (or whatever beat you want really if that end up working better... because you may actually need to use the REAL Audiosnap to time stretch and sometimes finding the best anchor point is a time saver). Now with the Snap to Grid turned up to whole notes or measures you can just slide your clips until all those markers (and thus your first beat of every clip) snap into place. This feature has helped me out of similar jams before. This feature is detailed in the manual under the Snap section (not Audiosnap). Maybe I'll look it up later and post it. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 06:53:17
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So both set of tracks are the same tempo? If they were just moved to the right spot the would all line up perfectly for the entire song (which would mean no stretching like you said)? If this is the case you do not need to use audiosnap for that. Just the Snap to Grid feature which is another function altogether and significantly easier to use. I'm going to assume that you are somewhat new to the program (if not my apologies) and it sounds like you are trying to line the tracks up one at a time which indeed could be laborious and sloppy. So multi select the clips before moving them in place (press Shift + A to clear any previous selections the hold Ctrl and click on each clip you are moving into place... this will select them and make it so you can move them all at once). Now you if you line one up they are all lined up. Once you are done this it would probably be a good idea to trim down or stretch out the clips so the are the EXACT same length as the other tracks. That way if you accidentally move something and don't want to Undo (like you didn't realize it and you;ve already done a bunch of other stuff) you can just move them back with Snap To Grid turned on. Just select all the clips (Ctrl + A) set the now time to where you want to trim them down to press S (split) and now all your clips start at the exact same time. There is another function involving Snap to Grid you might find useful but I forget the exact name of it or which menu it is under (I think it is under the right click menu after you've selected a clip). It basically puts a little marker/flag thing on the clip wherever you want and now instead of the Snap To or By function going by the start of the clip it will treat that flag as the start of the clip. The reason I bring this up is you could mark the very first beat on each clip (or whatever beat you want really if that end up working better... because you may actually need to use the REAL Audiosnap to time stretch and sometimes finding the best anchor point is a time saver). Now with the Snap to Grid turned up to whole notes or measures you can just slide your clips until all those markers (and thus your first beat of every clip) snap into place. This feature has helped me out of similar jams before. This feature is detailed in the manual under the Snap section (not Audiosnap). Maybe I'll look it up later and post it. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 07:03:59
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Okay... so I could not find the entry in the X3 manual (maybe something has changed but I doubt it... I'll check later when I fire up the DAW) so I dug up my personal notes on the subject from when I was studying X2 You can offset the Snap point of a clip by setting the Now Time > selecting the clip > Right Click > Set Snap Offset to Now Time. Now that point will snap to the grid instead of the beginning of the clip. The offset point will show a little arrow at the bottom of the Clip. To remove the offset select the Clip > open the Inspector (I) > select the Clips tab > in the Snap Offset section type 0 Hope that is useful. Good luck. Edit: Oh and the good news is you can use multi select to do this. First select the first set of tracks using Ctrl + Click then perform the procedure described above (set your Now Time to the first beat of of the song and insert your snap markers there... they will insert on all clips at the exact same point). Then turn on Snap and move the clips so that first beat lines up with the point on the timeline you want (I usually use Measure 2 or 3 so I have room at the start of my project). Now repeat the process on the next set of tracks. If your first beat doesn't line up right away just keep trying until you get it right. Now listen back to make sure there are no tempo fluctuations or drift (there shouldn't be if you used a meetronome and played tightly). If there are problems THEN you may have to use the Audiosnap function you were referring to earlier and stretch/shorten the clips or do more finite surgery like moving specific transients around which is a total pain. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
post edited by Beepster - 2014/06/02 07:11:08
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gbowling
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 08:47:45
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Thanks beep for the help, some of that really helps. One thing that is a bit tricky about the snap is that the audio was not recorded in cakewalk to a cakewalk time setting, so the measures/beats/etc are not even closely lined up to the project and the time probably drifts a bit here and there. That makes the "snap to grid" stuff not quite as easy. I think there is also a way to get the original clip lined up with cakewalk timing which would make it a lot easier. The other snap function and offset seems to be useful and I want to play with that a bit more. The "overlapping" track is a vocal track, which makes it a bit easier to do manually. What I've done so far is to manually slip edit the new tracks (all selected) and lined them up manually. When I get it close, I can solo the two audio tracks a and you can hear a slapback or echo on them as they are not perfectly in line. Then use the "nudge" function to play with it to get them lined up perfectly. When they are lined up perfectly the two solo'd tracks sound like one track and all is well. I was just hoping there would be a simple way to turn on transients on the two overlapping tracks, select all the tracks in one group and then have cakewalk quickly move the selected tracks to line up the transients. I guess that would be far to useful a function so apparently that doesn't exist, hahaha
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 09:04:40
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Well you could just turn on Transients, set the now time to line up with a specific transient (one that appears in both tracks). Then insert a Snap Offset marker on one at the Now Time and line it up to a point on the grid. Then do the same thing to the other track. Now, if the transients are indeed at the exact same spot and the transient detection is working properly they should line up. It may not be perfect though so then use the nudge tool if need be. As far as project drift THAT is something you can use Audiosnap's beat detection for. It's a little complicated and doesn't work that great sometimes but if the drift is only slight then you may have a shot. Personally though I just right click on the timeline where the beat SHOULD be then use the Insert Beat/Measure function to adjust the timeline. Doing it by measures is probably the best way to do that as opposed to every beat. It saves time and doesn't leave your tempo map looking like a total mess. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 09:06:35
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Oh and once you get things like those vocal tracks lined up you should put then in a Clips Group so anything you do to one is done to the other. That way you won't accidentally toss them out of whack again.
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gbowling
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 09:18:37
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Just a little background on what I'm doing here so it makes more sense. A friend of mine in another state has an old (late 70's) 1" 16 track master tape from his band he played in years ago. He's dumping the tracks to wav files and sending them to me to put together in cakewalk to both preserve and possibly re-master the recording. Most of the songs only have about 8-10 tracks recorded. He's successfully baked the tapes with a food dehydrator to temporarily cure the sticky tape problems associated with these old tapes. Unfortunately he only has the capability of recording 5 simultaneous tracks, so he dumps 5 tracks, then goes back and dumps 5 more tracks picking one track for a duplicate. He sends the wavs to me and I Import the audio producing a file with 10 tracks, 5 from one recording and 5 from the other, with two tracks that are the same. Then line the two recordings up in cakewalk to produce the full master. Right now we're doing one song to make sure we can do it, if all goes well we'll do the rest. It would be a lot easier to buy a better recording interface and record all the tracks at once, but then I wouldn't learn as much about cakewalk if we did that!
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 09:31:16
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You know maybe you should get him to send a stereo (or mono) mix of all the tracks as well. That way you can use that as your reference. Might making lining things up a little easier instead of say attempting to line up an isolated guitar to a snare. You would have reference point for ALL the tracks on the stereo file. Just a thought. And I've done a somewhat similar process with raw waves from my old DAW. Not EXACTLY the same but some of the things I had to do to get them set up in Sonar are. Also I had to contend with WILD tempo fluctuations because they were recorded live off the floor with no click tracks, musicians who sped up/slow down quite a bit (including myself) and the material itself incorporated lots of weird tempo changes. LOTS of work. Another thing I just thought of... if the guy has an optical i/o on his interface he may be able to just rent an expansion unit to get another set of outputs. With optical you can get an extra 4 tracks at 96khz and 8 tracks at 48khz. I've never done this before though so I'm not sure how complex it is but it seems to be very simple. It's just a dummy box with extra connectors.
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gbowling
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 10:22:50
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Thanks beep, good thoughts all. Indeed these were recorded with no click and hence the difficulty in lining them up with time in cakewalk. At least the 1" 16 track deck he has is very stable, so the drift between the two files is virtually nonexistent. Lining up the two groups of files using the vocal track as the duplicate/overlapping track seems to work well. It's actually easier to hear if the vocals are in sync than it is a snare drum or guitar. Once in sync the two tracks just meld together and sound like one track. I have the one file lined up using the manual method I described and the nudge function to get it exact. I can play the two vocal tracks solo'd through the whole song and they don't drift at all. Playing all the tracks and giving them a listen sounds pretty much spot on. For the next file I'm going to use your suggestion as that seems to be a lot more efficient way of doing it. From your post.. "turn on Transients, set the now time to line up with a specific transient (one that appears in both tracks). Then insert a Snap Offset marker on one at the Now Time and line it up to a point on the grid. Then do the same thing to the other track." It's a cool project and is going to be fun. Also you asked about my experience with cakewalk. I've had an on again, off again experience with cakewalk. I used it years ago as a midi recorder to sync to a tape deck with SMPTE. We recorded all the synths and a few other things on the computer via midi and all the other stuff on tape. We didn't really use a lot of the functions, just burned a sync track on tape and used it to extend the tracks of our tape deck. Then work got in the way and we stopped recording for a while. Now we're back into it and I'm just now learning all the new stuff. One thing that's always been a problem for me is that all the tinkering with computers tends to completely zap your creative side.. Therefore we have mostly used it sort of like an old fashioned tape deck, turn it on an PLAY! If things are out of time or don't sound right, don't fix it on the computer, PLAY IT AGAIN! hahaha. It's much more enjoyable to play another take than it is to get all balled up in the computer.
I also think the time changes and drifting around of live music is much more pleasing to me than stuffy things that are sync'd perfectly to a click track. As long as it's with good musicians and within reason. So I've not played around with all this sync stuff too much in the past. I also don't do this for a living, otherwise I would have to learn how to deal with what other people want to do. Myself and a few long time friends write songs and play music. We now live in different parts of the country, so we're learning how to do this remotely using cakewalk.
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 10:47:16
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Yeah I hear ya. When I had full bands and a band room to record in I did not worry about ANY of the other crap. It just went straight into the computer and I didn't even bother learning about/using effects other than EQ and a bit of gain automation when mixing. Now I am on my own though so I have to do all the parts so I HAD to learn about MIDI for my drums. I also needed to keep things in sync for overdubbing and learn about proper mixing so my stuff doesn't sound like arse. It's been... yeesh... two years now and I'm only working on my second full song. BUT because I've spent so much time digging around in all the corners of the program and trying things out when I DO actually sit down to record or mix something it is effortless. I should be able to finally start cranking out quality material much faster than I used to. I mostly just need a lot more practice mixing at this point. And X3 is certainly a very different beast than those older versions so even the basics are likely a little confusing. You seem really quite smart though and understand general recording so it'll likely fall into place quickly. Cheers.
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gbowling
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 10:59:06
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Thanks beep, yep been recording and playing for a long time. Came very close to a life in music and a record deal with Atlantic back in 1982. Would be interested in hearing some of your work as you get it going. Here are some things I've done in the past. All written and recorded by myself and two other guys. I'm the lowly drummer, hahaha. My standard joke.. what do you call a girl who hangs around the band? answer - groupie. What do you call a guy who hangs around the band? answer - the drummer!
The latest was the shadows of doubt work which was finished in 1993! With cakewalk midi sync'd to a 16 track tape deck. They are all copyright'd but free to play, just no using the songs or recordings in other works.
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Splat
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 11:01:27
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The UI with Audiosnap always perplexed me it is not intuitive. This and drummaps are the weakest areas of the X3 UI in my opinion. I can use Audiosnap but every time I have to consult the manual for an hour or something to remind me how it works, hoping X4 entirely redesigns the UI.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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gbowling
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 11:09:24
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Agreed Alex, they need a real musician/engineer to consult with how to do that. It provides some incredible functionality, but it shouldn't be as hard as it is. Even the simple things are a pain. One thing I do sometimes is take a snare part, turn the transients on, copy the transients to a midi note, past that into a session drummer track. Effectively building a session drummer snare track from my recorded snare, mix the two and it's better drum production than trying to add reverb/effects to the recorded snare. In doing that, you have to set the midi note for the transients to the sessions drummer snare note.. Of course the setting in audiosnap is in notes.. eg C3 or whatever, and in session drummer the note is something like "note 38." Arrgh, it always takes me a bit to remember the mapping between C3 and note 36 or 38 or whatever it is.. See I don't remember it now!! Just making that consistent where both places used the same thing would be a big help. GB
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 11:10:29
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gbowling Thanks beep, yep been recording and playing for a long time. Came very close to a life in music and a record deal with Atlantic back in 1982. Would be interested in hearing some of your work as you get it going. Here are some things I've done in the past. All written and recorded by myself and two other guys. I'm the lowly drummer, hahaha. My standard joke.. what do you call a girl who hangs around the band? answer - groupie. What do you call a guy who hangs around the band? answer - the drummer! The latest was the shadows of doubt work which was finished in 1993! With cakewalk midi sync'd to a 16 track tape deck. They are all copyright'd but free to play, just no using the songs or recordings in other works.
Heh. Seems your link got dropped because you hadn't reached 25 posts yet (the forum won't allow links until after 25). Try again and I'll check them out in a little while. I'll be posting my current creation in the Songs sub forum once it's ready but that may not be for a while. I keep getting distracted by life stuff and I'm trying some of the wackier functions of Sonar for the first time just to wrap my head around them. I'm hoping within a month. CakeAlexS The UI with Audiosnap always perplexed me it is not intuitive. This and drummaps are the weakest areas of the X3 UI in my opinion. I can use Audiosnap but every time I have to consult the manual for an hour or something to remind me how it works, hoping X4 entirely redesigns the UI.
It really does need some work. I mentioned an updated version of AS to Bill Jackson for the next version and he seemed to like the idea so fingers crossed. That would definitely be something that would make me upgrade sooner than I currently anticipate... provided it works well. I like how Reaper seems to handle that stuff. No muss no fuss.
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gbowling
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 11:19:47
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Hahah, internet police!! The link is fun dot gbco dot us slash music dot htm.. haha that should get through!
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 11:39:37
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You should be able to post hyperlinks now (unless they change the rules). You were right on the cusp with that original post. Just weird luck/timing. lol
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gbowling
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 11:40:20
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 12:06:03
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There ya go. I'm about to do some tracking but I clicked on the first song (lots of material there... cool). Those are some nice signal captures. You must have some good gear back then. Has kind of a Bowie/Talking heads thing going on. Very nostalgic and would probably sell today with some modern mixing. Glad to meet you, man. I'll definitely check out some more stuff later. Cheers.
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gbowling
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 12:23:31
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Thanks man, look forward to hearing some of your stuff as well. I'll be around the forum now that I'm getting back into this stuff. That's really but a sampling, we have written over 300 songs!! Now-a-days we waffle around between recording an old one we wrote but don't have a recording of or recording a new one as we still are writing things. I have a couple of new ones in the works so should be able to add a few. I need to find a place to upload them, I had a friend who had songs on reverbnation at one point, not sure if they are even still around. But need a place to upload and sell/share songs at some point.
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Beepster
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Re: Audiosnap x3
2014/06/02 12:32:41
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gbowling Thanks man, look forward to hearing some of your stuff as well. I'll be around the forum now that I'm getting back into this stuff. That's really but a sampling, we have written over 300 songs!! Now-a-days we waffle around between recording an old one we wrote but don't have a recording of or recording a new one as we still are writing things. I have a couple of new ones in the works so should be able to add a few. I need to find a place to upload them, I had a friend who had songs on reverbnation at one point, not sure if they are even still around. But need a place to upload and sell/share songs at some point.
The popular ones around here seem to be soundcloud and soundclick. Soundcloud was really cool (and still kind of is) but they did some site upgrade shortly after I joined and now find it annoying to use. You also have Gobbler integration with X3 which I haven't tried but I'm not sure if it is streaming like those other sites or just a file dump like Dropbox (which is the one I use but might switch to Google Drive which is easier to use). When you do get some stuff ready for release check out CDbaby if you haven't already heard of them. They charge a nominal fee but toss your stuff up everywhere online, make packaged discs and pay you whenever someone streams or buys your stuff. Good percentages too. It's like an automatic Indie record label deal... but more so. That's off topic though but you can PM me if you want. Cheers.
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