kennywtelejazz
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Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
Hello SONAR Community ,
It is now time to "Rat on myself " I need to find out if there is a much better way of doing things in SONAR than how I have been doing things thus far.
A quick over view of my general M.O . in a nutshell has been most of my work and editing has been treated in a somewhat destructive fashion .
What I mean by destructively is regardless of whether I'm working with Midi or audio it does not matter . I wind up using SONAR in a very object oriented approach ...
I may have signal chains and processing going on globally as per individual track / buss's and sends .
( those have been somewhat static on my end meaning non automated )
Then I have editing and processing going on as per phrase / musical motif . In the shorter phrases which are contained within the tracks I have taken great care in editing within each phrase including every possible parameter I can address ...
All done destructively from my end over here....
After many years of doing things this way I'm finding out that this way of working is an OK starting point but when it comes to adding sonic movement and vibrancy to my music ..it leaves a lot to be desired..
I have started experimenting with the read and write functions on the plugs and synths themselves. This is new to me and I find this approach to be very interesting even if this turns out to be my version of attempting baby steps in automation ....
I have yet to pull down the drop down menus so here I am ....
I'm interested in how you do what you do and what approaches you have found helpful in working with SONAR while automating synths and plugs ...
Keep in mind I don't have a control surface , I'm mousing around , yet I am interested in that approach if that is how you work .
I may only be able to understand your suggestions and feedback on a conceptual theoretical level but hey who knows a seed might get planted ..
thanks in advance ,
Kenny
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dcumpian
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/11 12:25:22
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2017/07/12 13:07:42
Hey Kenny,
While you certainly can do all your automation move with a mouse, I personally find that I have more control using a large trackball. The only thing that may be better than that are dedicated hardware knobs/sliders, but even then, I may still reach for the trackball.
So, any exposed parameter can be automated. For most synths and effect plugins, there are a lot of parameters that are exposed. The key is determining which ones to automate, and this really boils down to: what are you trying to achieve?
For adding liveliness to synths, automating things like filter cutoff, resonance, release and so on are very useful. If you look at something like Omnisphere, it is very common to see patches that have FX automated with mod wheel movements, so that when a filter is applied, the reverb gets bigger at the same time.
For mixing plugins, I typically don't automate the plugins themselves very often and instead automate send levels to a bus with the plugin on it. But there are occasions where I want to automate things like modulation depth or rate on a chorus, for example, to add a special effect to a note or phrase.
Anyway, that's all just scratching the surface...
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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konradh
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/11 14:08:38
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2017/07/12 13:07:34
With a track in WRITE mode, I make changes to plug-ins (volume, turn them off/on, etc.).
Whether or not it works seems to depend on the plug in. Most of my automation is simple stuff, like turning an effect on for the chorus and off for the verse, etc.
I have not tried automating volume on virtual instruments because automating the track volume seems more straightforward. (Around 4,000 years ago, I wrote lots of MIDI volume changes into tracks, but find it better just to use track faders since they are right there in plain view.)
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/12 01:03:21
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dcumpian
Hey Kenny,
While you certainly can do all your automation move with a mouse, I personally find that I have more control using a large trackball. The only thing that may be better than that are dedicated hardware knobs/sliders, but even then, I may still reach for the trackball.
So, any exposed parameter can be automated. For most synths and effect plugins, there are a lot of parameters that are exposed. The key is determining which ones to automate, and this really boils down to: what are you trying to achieve?
For adding liveliness to synths, automating things like filter cutoff, resonance, release and so on are very useful. If you look at something like Omnisphere, it is very common to see patches that have FX automated with mod wheel movements, so that when a filter is applied, the reverb gets bigger at the same time.
For mixing plugins, I typically don't automate the plugins themselves very often and instead automate send levels to a bus with the plugin on it. But there are occasions where I want to automate things like modulation depth or rate on a chorus, for example, to add a special effect to a note or phrase.
Anyway, that's all just scratching the surface...
Regards,
Dan
Hi Dan , Thanks for taking the time to help explain to me some of your automation preferences in your SONAR workflow. They may prove to be very helpful to me once I figure out where I want to go with this  Yeah, the mouse only at this point is because 99% of the time I'm working on my music on my kitchen table w a lap top , my 2i4 , monitors , headphones and any number of guitars or instruments I may need to use . I do realize for most people here working that way would probably be a major step back . In my case it allows me the freedom to focus on addressing my shortcomings regarding many of the things I still need to learn about when it comes to working w SONAR and digital audio . In plain simple English I'm still in The Woodshed trying to play catch up  When you say exposed parameters are you also including the drop down menus of what can be automated on a track basis ? I ask that because this has been one of the things that has prompted me to start this thread in the first place ...The amount of choices available are staggering ...my apologies if I'm all over the place here ... I recently realized that I could automate any parameter that was in my Pro Channel . This epiphany actually shocked me . I was like where the hell was I when the memo on that came out ? Sleeping in the back of the classroom ? Dan you have already given me a very good idea already . it never occurred to me to automate my sends to a buss as you have mentioned and do my automation there , automating the plugs in the signal chain . My way of approaching that was on a track per track and it seemed very tedious . Synth wise , Omnisphere is on my list of synths I want to get when my funds permit ... I have been using a recent synth that recently came out called BioTek ...The Gui has a really cool interface when in Wild mode where it is very easy to create and morph the whole nature of the synth sounds in real time as the synth plays ... I have only scratched the surface VIA write and read automation using that synth ... this is also another reason why I want to dive deeper into learning how to automate in SONAR .... I do appreciate you helping me out Dan , thank you for taking the time konradh
With a track in WRITE mode, I make changes to plug-ins (volume, turn them off/on, etc.).
Whether or not it works seems to depend on the plug in. Most of my automation is simple stuff, like turning an effect on for the chorus and off for the verse, etc.
I have not tried automating volume on virtual instruments because automating the track volume seems more straightforward. (Around 4,000 years ago, I wrote lots of MIDI volume changes into tracks, but find it better just to use track faders since they are right there in plain view.)
Hi konradh, You approach is exactly what I'm learning how to do right now in SONAR . I feel just like a kid in the candy store Thank you for taking the time to help me out all the best, Kenny
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/12 06:56:27
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2017/07/12 13:07:27
I highly recommend Logitech's "Trackman" for locations with little space. It's like a trackball but you move it with your fingers instead of your thumb, for me it's much more intuitive and easier to get used to than a traditional trackball.
As for automating without any control surface, whenever I have to do this I use the plugin interface to find the points I want to automate between (e.g. LPF cutoff from 200Hz to 14KHz). If it's anything resembling a straight line I'll just draw it, if not I'll "ballpark" it by recording mouse movement and then edit the recorded curve/points.
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dcumpian
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/12 12:17:39
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2017/07/12 13:07:22
kennywtelejazz
When you say exposed parameters are you also including the drop down menus of what can be automated on a track basis ? I ask that because this has been one of the things that has prompted me to start this thread in the first place ...The amount of choices available are staggering ...my apologies if I'm all over the place here ...
Yes, but there is more. Many synths allow you to "midi learn" a knob/slider/button so even if it isn't available as a parameter in the menu, you can automate it using continuous controllers. I generally don't use the menus. I just turn on write mode and play the track and move the controls in the synth itself. The menus are useful if you are trying to automate a parameter that isn't visible in the VST. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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dcumpian
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/12 12:19:19
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2017/07/12 13:07:01
Sanderxpander
I highly recommend Logitech's "Trackman" for locations with little space. It's like a trackball but you move it with your fingers instead of your thumb, for me it's much more intuitive and easier to get used to than a traditional trackball.
As for automating without any control surface, whenever I have to do this I use the plugin interface to find the points I want to automate between (e.g. LPF cutoff from 200Hz to 14KHz). If it's anything resembling a straight line I'll just draw it, if not I'll "ballpark" it by recording mouse movement and then edit the recorded curve/points.
I use a Kensington Trackball Expert Mouse. The ball on it is huge and I control it with fingertips as well. https://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k64325/expert-mouse-wired-trackball Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/12 15:14:51
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Cool, wasn't aware of that one!
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/13 04:23:04
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dcumpian
Sanderxpander
I highly recommend Logitech's "Trackman" for locations with little space. It's like a trackball but you move it with your fingers instead of your thumb, for me it's much more intuitive and easier to get used to than a traditional trackball.
As for automating without any control surface, whenever I have to do this I use the plugin interface to find the points I want to automate between (e.g. LPF cutoff from 200Hz to 14KHz). If it's anything resembling a straight line I'll just draw it, if not I'll "ballpark" it by recording mouse movement and then edit the recorded curve/points.
I use a Kensington Trackball Expert Mouse. The ball on it is huge and I control it with fingertips as well.
https://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/k64325/expert-mouse-wired-trackball
Regards,
Dan
Thank You both for sharing what you use your suggestions have strongly influenced me on considering picking up one of these trackball mice . first I heard of this type of thing ...Oh Lord I need to get out more dcumpian
kennywtelejazz
When you say exposed parameters are you also including the drop down menus of what can be automated on a track basis ? I ask that because this has been one of the things that has prompted me to start this thread in the first place ...The amount of choices available are staggering ...my apologies if I'm all over the place here ...
Yes, but there is more. Many synths allow you to "midi learn" a knob/slider/button so even if it isn't available as a parameter in the menu, you can automate it using continuous controllers. I generally don't use the menus. I just turn on write mode and play the track and move the controls in the synth itself. The menus are useful if you are trying to automate a parameter that isn't visible in the VST.
Regards,
Dan
Great info and sharing Dan thank you , Kenny
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/13 04:23:53
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Sanderxpander
Cool, wasn't aware of that one!
neither was I  Kenny
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Automating VST instruments and plugins in SONAR . Help school me on this feature .
2017/07/14 16:35:08
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OK , we have decided that a Track ball mouse is a good tool to have and it is very useful for automation in SONAR .. Having gone there , I feel I'm ahead of the game with that info Whats next folks ? does anybody care to share specific workflows that pertain to using automation in SONAR ? All the typical stuff like Pan and Volume I already know how to do ... What I am most interested in learning is how to use automation to take the stock instruments and plugs that come with SONAR and bring them into a Sound design Type of Sonic Territory ... FWIW , I do know that that can be a very complex topic to approach .. When you combine the editing capability's of midi , the actual VST instrument with controls and combine all that with plugs it seems the choices can be endless ..So far it has been my experience that managing all the intricate automation lanes themselves can certainly be a handful. Either way I'm still interested in hearing and learning what some of you consider to be good places to start with this topic ... I'm OK with links to u tube and other forms of tutorials  all the best , Kenny
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