DaveG74
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Automation & controllers: Still confused!
Hello, all! I've been using Music Creator 6 for a few months and I'm still confused about how to implement automation controllers. This was previously discussed in these topics: "Music Creator 6 newbie!" "How to find/use Pitch Bend?" (for some reason, the links to the threads above were automatically removed?)After consulting resources such as CakeTV/Sonar University videos and the Cakewalk Documentation (and by help from others on this Forum), I'm afraid I'm still unable to comprehend this. I compose my MIDI music within the PRV view using Soft Synths and no external equipment. I wish to use controllers such as modulation, pitch bend, pan, reverb, etc. The Synths used are Cakewalk TTS-1 and Cakewalk SoundCenter. In the following screenshot, I've created a new MIDI template using the Simple Instrument Track option and nothing else. Both synth tracks offer the indicated options...  As you can see, with the SoundCenter synth, the Control values aren't labeled. When I try to use one, the automation window does not appear. How do I find/access/utilize my controllers in this manner? In this next screenshot, I created a MIDI template using the MIDI Source option and nothing else. In this image, all the controllers are listed, but I am not hearing audio with this option.  All the automation examples I've seen were for audio clips and none for MIDI notation. I swear I was once able to draw in controllers for MIDI but I don't remember how. I think I understand that TTS-1 is synonymous with General MIDI, but somehow I'm missing something and cannot seem to implement automation. Is this based on the Synth Options window? Otherwise, what could I possibly be missing/doing wrong that I can't find use automation in am I doing wrong and what am I missing? Any further assistance is appreciated. Thanks!
post edited by Grundberg - 2013/09/07 11:34:30
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scook
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/07 11:51:20
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MIDI automation is not available in the track view of a simple instrument track. Automating MIDI data using simple instrument tracks must be done in the PRV. Simple instrument tracks are a compromised consolidation of an audio track and a MIDI track. All of the features of an audio track and a MIDI track are not available in an instrument track.
In the MIDI track example, notice that it lacks a corresponding audio track. A MIDI track by itself will make no sound. When presented with "Insert Soft Synth Options" dialog, make sure to check one of the "Audio Output" options in addition to the "MIDI Source." Failing to select an "Audio Output" option, in order for the MIDI track to be heard it is necessary to:
1) Manually assign the MIDI track output to a synth and
2) Make sure that the synth is the input of an audio track.
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DaveG74
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/07 18:17:16
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Thank you for your detailed explanation. I have reviewed your instructions, and here's my result... I created a project under MIDI Template. Inserted a CSC synth, checking "MIDI Source" on the Synth Options dialog. But here's my dilemma: I'm confused about "First Synth"/"All Synth" (even after reading instructions on Synth Options dialog) I am unsure whether the "Display Automation On" drop-down menu should be set to First Synth/MIDI Source (or enabled at all) For the moment, I chose the "All Synth" checkbox without changing anything else. I have one track Audio+MIDI (based on the header icons?) and one track Audio. The Automation in the Events Filter drop-down menu opens the same menu as my Screenshot 2 in the original post. Per Screenshot 1, I cannot choose a Control because the controller numbers are not labeled.  (In Track 2, I changed the [C]hannel to 1 after this screenshot was taken.) For the sake of experimentation, I chose Automation -> Reverb and created the envelope, but reverb was not heard. Also tried Wheel (expectation of pitch bend), but that seemed to have no effect. And where is my Modulation controller? Seems as though the controllers aren't working in this instance. Please assist further. Thank you... :)
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scook
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/07 19:02:46
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Some synths have more than one audio out. TTS-1 for example has 4. To keep things simple for now maybe just selecting First Synth Audio Output may be enough to learn with. If you wish, you can ignore the labelled MIDI controller options and use the "MIDI Envelope" dialog accessible from the "MIDI..." option at the bottom of the Automation menu in the edit filter. It is similar to the "MIDI Event Type" dialog in the Piano Roll View. Also if you elect to create MIDI envelopes they are only going to appear in the track view, just like if you elect to create MIDI controllers in the PRV they are only going to appear in the the PRV. Either way will send the same MIDI data to the synths. WRT the controllers and how they affect synths is synth dependent. In the case of Cakewalk Sound Center, MIDI reverb and chorus do nothing.
post edited by scook - 2013/09/07 19:12:45
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DaveG74
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/07 22:59:57
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Alright. So I created a new MIDI template with "MIDI Source" and "First Audio" checked in the Options dialog. Two tracks were created and I changed to Clips view in the Track View screen. I did this for both Synths on the same project to compare results. Started tinkering with the automation options for each. On the pair of TTS-1 tracks, I was able to get the Reverb, Pan and Chorus envelopes to work, and they sounded fantastic. However, for both TTS-1 and SoundCenter paired tracks, I experienced similar issues: The Wheel controller (pitch bend) did not work and modulation only worked the first playback. However, they both worked consistently when entered through the PRV Controller Pane rather than Track view. Somehow, accidentally triggering controller #74, I was able to establish a "simulated" reverb. You stated that Reverb and Chorus do nothing...does this mean there's no way to use them for the CSC synth? I'm so confused. If I can only get automation to work for TTS-1, then I'm only getting half the value of this product. Please assist with the above. Thanks again. :)
post edited by Grundberg - 2013/09/07 23:35:49
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scook
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/08 00:24:45
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The CSC does not respond to MIDI reverb or chorus (IIRC, CC91 and CC93 in his case). For that matter, of all the synths that are included in MC6 only the TTS-1 has that capability.
Effects like reverb and chorus are usually added with plug-ins in the FX bin of the audio/instrument track. Of course, some synths have onboard effects. Their automation depend on the the synth. In the case of the CSC, the effect knobs above the keyboard become active depending on the program. Those knobs have default CC bindings, MIDI learn and they are also exposed for automation in the audio track.
I cannot explain why you appear to be having inconsistent results with automation. At this stage, you might want to find a method that works consistently for you and move on, until you are more comfortable with the DAW. If that means working in the PRV, so be it.
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DaveG74
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/08 08:53:54
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You know what...about the time you posted this response, I was just starting to figure all this out.  Thanks for your help! You were right -- drawing controllers through the PRV Controller Pane is much easier (and more reliable) than in Automation. That will become my method of applying such effects. With your help (and GuitarHacker as well), I think I've finally nailed this. This is what I've learned: I can work with a Simple Instrument Track rather than MIDI Source and use all the controllers I need I've found a specific way to get Reverb, Pan, Modulation, Pitch Bend/Wheel, Chorus to work in each Synth (TTS-1, CSC, and Drums) I got Reverb/Chorus to work in the CSC Synth through the FX...super easy as a full-track Controller I can alter the number of events in a Controller pattern by adjusting the Snap To settings I'm going to leave track view Automation alone for the time being and stick to PRV. I don't want to get too excited, as there are bound to be further hiccups. Will just keep my fingers crossed as I work! :) The only remaining dilemma is -- when I draw in a controller -- but then erase it -- sometimes the effect "sticks". How do I "unstick" my controllers, or t a "reset"? Is there a way to do that? Thanks again, Scook! :)
post edited by Grundberg - 2013/09/08 09:00:54
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scook
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/08 09:24:23
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Grundberg
The only remaining dilemma is -- when I draw in a controller -- but then erase it -- sometimes the effect "sticks". How do I "unstick" my controllers, or t a "reset"? Is there a way to do that?
I am not sure about exactly what you mean. But here is something that might help understand what is happening. If something strange is going on in a MIDI track, check out the Event List view. You might find some clues about what is going on.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/08 09:35:52
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I'm not at the DAW right now and this is not something I tend to use very much..... if ever these days since I also tend to work 99.9% in the audio world....... BUT Back in the day I did use Jamstix, a midi synth for drums quite a bit. And it has a POWER KNOB in it that when adjusted takes the drummer from side stick playing to full on snare hits and much more.... with a simple turn of the knob. I wanted to automate that knob so it would happen automatically in playback and also in the mix down/export. After running into many brick walls and dead ends in my attempt to automate this function of the synth I finally discovered the correct way to do it. I would assume that using this method on another synth would be very similar. Just swap the synth names and the function you want to control and give it a try. It involves having the midi source track and the audio track working on that synth. Then you add a second midi track and output it to the synth. Read the info in this link from my web site for more detailed info and what to click on etc..... http://www.herbhartley.com/hh2_edited_slimmer_006.htm I hope this helps you get the parameters set for automating the controllers.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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DaveG74
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/08 10:10:47
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scook
Grundberg
The only remaining dilemma is -- when I draw in a controller -- but then erase it -- sometimes the effect "sticks". How do I "unstick" my controllers, or t a "reset"? Is there a way to do that?
I am not sure about exactly what you mean. But here is something that might help understand what is happening. If something strange is going on in a MIDI track, check out the Event List view. You might find some clues about what is going on.
That's a great idea, I should start getting into the habit of doing that. I just had a bit of trouble trying to apply Modulation to CSC's Sternone 1 guitar...a bit bummed about that, because it would've been a nice effect. Is there a known issue with applying controllers to certain instruments? I would hate having to resort to TTS-1 as a workaround for being able to apply effects to the instruments I truly wish to use... Guitarhacker
After running into many brick walls and dead ends in my attempt to automate this function of the synth I finally discovered the correct way to do it. I would assume that using this method on another synth would be very similar. Just swap the synth names and the function you want to control and give it a try.
It involves having the midi source track and the audio track working on that synth. Then you add a second midi track and output it to the synth. Read the info in this link from my web site for more detailed info and what to click on etc.....
http://www.herbhartley.com/hh2_edited_slimmer_006.htm
I hope this helps you get the parameters set for automating the controllers.
I'm afraid this one is a little above me. However, I will review the link and give it a look. Thanks a bunch! :)
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scook
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/08 10:51:27
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There should be no problem with modulation and CSC Sternone 1 guitar patch. Check the Event List. For now keep it simple. There should only be note and modulation data. If there is anything else, delete it.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2013/09/09 07:26:24
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Guitarhacker
After running into many brick walls and dead ends in my attempt to automate this function of the synth I finally discovered the correct way to do it. I would assume that using this method on another synth would be very similar. Just swap the synth names and the function you want to control and give it a try.
It involves having the midi source track and the audio track working on that synth. Then you add a second midi track and output it to the synth. Read the info in this link from my web site for more detailed info and what to click on etc.....
http://www.herbhartley.com/hh2_edited_slimmer_006.htm
I hope this helps you get the parameters set for automating the controllers.
I'm afraid this one is a little above me. However, I will review the link and give it a look. Thanks a bunch! :) Quite simply put, I wanted to control a midi function in this synth. Since the function was a controllable function, all I needed to do was insert a dedicated midi track to do that control function with. Then I used an envelope in that new midi track which was linked to, and controlled that particular function. This sounds exactly like what you are trying to accomplish.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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DaveG74
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2014/02/05 21:07:29
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I began writing my own documentation for MC6, considering the existing references I've seen don't answer my questions in detail. I still run across a few hiccups here and there. This is what I have:
Sometimes, when I apply a controller (Reverb, Pan, etc.) to a TTS Track menu, but then delete the controller...it "sticks". The effect remains, although I've confirmed (even in the Event screen) that the controller no longer exists. How do I "reset" the controller?
This also happened while applying a CC1: Modulation controller to a SoundCenter instrument. I changed the SoundCenter instrument to something else, and I could hear the Modulation while sampling in the Synth Properties window. But when I played notes in the PRV for the new instrument, the effect disappeared. What happened here?
In reference to the above passage, I was able to apply a CC1: Modulation controller to a SoundCenter instrument. I thought MIDI controllers were only usable on the TTS synth? In the same sense, is this the correct way to use modulation only per note, rather than through the FX Bin (per track)? I just want note modulation, not track modulation.
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DaveG74
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Re: Automation & controllers: Still confused!
2014/04/03 21:12:38
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I'm bumping this thread because I inquired months back about how to use pitch bend controllers in the Track pane vs. Controller pane. I just learned that only Freehand and Line patterns are available in the Controller Pane, as the other patterns can only be drawn in Automation. This is where is continues to get really tricky for me. Although I know much of the instruction was explained above, I ask that it be delicately "ironed out" for me so that I can understand it. So -- say I've got either a TTS-1 track or a SoundCenter track. I want to draw a Sine pattern -- or whatever pattern -- on my guitar instrument to create some snazzy pitch bend: 1) How do I get started drawing the automation? 2) Does it matter whether Notes/Clips are selected in the Events filter? 3) I've had some effects "stick" on me after they've been deleted. How do I reset a stubborn effect that won't go away, although deleted? To summarize again, I would like to know the steps necessary to enable & draw pitch wheel bends via Automation. The reference materials often don't compare to good, user-to-user instruction. Please assist, anyone. Thanks! :) EDIT: Noticed that on a SoundCenter track (simple), I'm unable to use anything but Freehand and Sine in Track automation. I thought the others were available up there? So confused...
post edited by Grundberg - 2014/04/03 21:50:11
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