nickl23
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Automation question
Hi Everyone,
I'm hoping someone can answer an automation question for me.
When I write automation, there are seemingly two different ways this can be exhibited. In one method, the fader follows the course of the automation and any attempt to control overall volume must be either done elsewhere, or the track must be re-automated. In other words, the level of the existing automation is non-controllable by the fader unless overwritten. In the other method, the automation plays back, but the fader is stationary - allowing me to increase or decrease the entire program of automation overall - which is by far, my preferred method of working. If, for example, I have focused too intently on the track to be automated and recorded it a little hot in relation to the other tracks, then upon playback, I can reduce it by 2 or 3 db and although quiter, the automation remains intact.
Can someone point me in the direction of an explanation for these two methods and how to select one over the other? As always, I am truly appreciative of you help.
thanks,
Nick
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gswitz
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/03 18:49:19
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I'm a little confused by your question, Nick, but I'll try.
1st you create an automation envelop for a track...
next you want to raise the whole envelope up or down some Db in the mix.
There are a couple of ways...
1.
if you use the gain nob you can control the input into the FX etc... now, if you have compressors set and other fx that will be impacted by the gain staging this will modify the overall sound of the track, but if you have no FX that are impacted by gain, this would enable you to raise and lower the volume of your track without moving your envelope.
2.
Alternatively, you could lasso the envelope nodes you wish to move collectively in the envelope. Control click any one of the selected envelope nodes, then release control and press shift... this will allow you to move the whole envelop vertically without accidentally moving it horizontally. now you can move the whole envelope up and down (by dragging).
3.
You could add an FX chain plug to the end of the Pro Channel and use the output fader on that chain to modify the volume coming out of the effect.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/03 18:59:25
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If you turn on the WRITE AUTOMATION... Click the "W" ...as you enter a playback mode and drag a fader. it gets recorded and it will repeat those moves in the future. In the Track View mode you can see the envelopes. I do not like this method since it is not very precise. I prefer to use the manual method to input envelope changes. In the track view mode I select the volume envelope manually and click insert. Then I simply add nodes exactly where I want them and drag the lines and nodes as needed. A typical project of mine is shown below...and you can see what I refer to as SURGICAL editing of the envelopes. For me, this is the most accurate and hence the preferred method of working with envelopes whether they are volume, panning or VST automation envelopes. 
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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nickl23
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/03 19:33:16
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Sorry guys, I think I'm not being clear here. I get two different modes of operation - seemingly at random. I'm not choosing them but they work very differently. It appears to be tied to individual projects. If I go into "Write" mode in a project and it's one way or the other, the entire project writes/automates that way. In Method 1, when I press "W" the fader snaps up to Unity (still reflecting it's previous volume though. If it was set to -10db, the Write mode shows Unity but it's still sounding at -10db). When I am done and come out of "W", it goes back to it's original position. In Method 2, I press "W" and the fader stays right where it is and I automate from that position.
Lets' say I'm going to automate volume on the Lead Vocal bus. I press "W" and perform the automation. When I come OUT of "W", sometimes the fader tracks the automation visibly (Method 2) and sometimes it stays in one spot - even with the "Read" button engaged (Method 1) . I can still hear the automation but the fader doesn't move at all. When it's in like this - one spot - I can raise or lower the fader to adjust the volume of that entire automation program. I want to know how these two different modes of operation are selected. Sorry if this still isn't clear. I don't know how else to describe it.
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SuperG
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/03 20:53:08
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nickl23
Sorry guys, I think I'm not being clear here. I get two different modes of operation - seemingly at random. I'm not choosing them but they work very differently. It appears to be tied to individual projects. If I go into "Write" mode in a project and it's one way or the other, the entire project writes/automates that way. In Method 1, when I press "W" the fader snaps up to Unity (still reflecting it's previous volume though. If it was set to -10db, the Write mode shows Unity but it's still sounding at -10db). When I am done and come out of "W", it goes back to it's original position. In Method 2, I press "W" and the fader stays right where it is and I automate from that position.
Lets' say I'm going to automate volume on the Lead Vocal bus. I press "W" and perform the automation. When I come OUT of "W", sometimes the fader tracks the automation visibly (Method 2) and sometimes it stays in one spot - even with the "Read" button engaged (Method 1) . I can still hear the automation but the fader doesn't move at all. When it's in like this - one spot - I can raise or lower the fader to adjust the volume of that entire automation program. I want to know how these two different modes of operation are selected. Sorry if this still isn't clear. I don't know how else to describe it.
Ah, I see... There are a couple of write modes available for automation. (Unfortunately, I'm using X2 Essential which has only one..) 'Touch' mode is where the you touch the fader and write automation follows whatever you do, as long as you continue to hold the fader. (This really requires a touch-capable fader for correct action, a controller similar to the Alphatrack I use) The other mode is 'Latch', which means that new automation is written as soon as you either touch or move the fader: it does not stop writing new automation when you release the fader. There is a third mode also, I can't think of it off of the top of my head though. With the info we've given you here, a quick trip through the the Sonar help file will clear all the rest up quite nicely.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/04 02:06:08
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Super G has it. There are three modes.
Of course the track needs to have the write automation button armed for any of these to be obeyed.
Touch is the default. Automation is read until you touch the fader at which point new automation data is created overwriting any existing data. As soon as you release the fader writing stops and existing automation takes over.
Overwrite. Automation is written from the moment playback starts whether you touch the control or not and continues to be written until playback stops. This can be quite a dangerous mode once chosen because if you start playback with write automation armed any existing automation will be overwritten without you touching anything else.
Latch is a hybrid of the two. It follows automation initially but once a control is touched writing starts and continues until playback is stopped, regardless of whether the control is released or not.
It is a per track setting so you can easily see different behaviour within the same project.
Set it from the Track Inspection under the automation section.
HTH
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frankandfree
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/04 04:11:10
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When I come OUT of "W", sometimes the fader tracks the automation visibly (Method 2) and sometimes it stays in one spot - even with the "Read" button engaged (Method 1) . I can still hear the automation but the fader doesn't move at all. When it's in like this - one spot - I can raise or lower the fader to adjust the volume of that entire automation program. I think what he's describing there is the fader offset mode. It's in there for exactly that purpose - tweaking the entire automation a tad up or down. Offset-able controls suffix a litte plus sign in their label when in that mode (eg Vol+). Press "O" to toggle (or use a button as described in the following link). Here's the link to Cakewalks documentation of it: http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X2&Lang=EN&Req=Automation.13.html It's a good feature, albeit probably a bit too easy to engage inadvertently and indication of it being active not prominent enough. Questions by puzzled users come up ever so often (almost as frequently as scroll-lock  ). Maybe the default binding should be something else, like [some modifier key] + O?
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gswitz
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/04 06:15:25
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@FrankAndFree This is cool I didn't know about envelope offset mode, ty!
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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SuperG
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/04 10:47:25
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gswitz
@FrankAndFree This is cool I didn't know about envelope offset mode, ty!
I didn't know that either - +1 for bringing it up! 
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/04 10:56:57
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Be careful with Offset mode - you can easily screw up your beautifully crafted mix if you just engage it and forget about it.
1 - Press 'O'
2 - Make your change(s)
3 - Press 'O' again to get back to normal (or envelope) mode
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nickl23
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/04 12:02:58
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Thanks everybody. I think frankandfree has pointed me in the right direction. Just out of curiosity though, I've tried pressing "O" and ALL of the tracks suddenly jump to Unity - armed or not. That's not actually what I'm talking about. In the method that I'm hoping to be able to use at will, I press "W" on a track and ONLY that fader jumps up to Unity. Everything else stays where it was - unless it's armed to write also. The selected track shows the progress of the automation when armed, but when I come out of "W" the fader is stationary and I'm able to move it to control the volume of the entire automated program. I get this in some projects and not others and I'm trying to understand how to control the choice - it can be very useful. Thanks again.
Sorry for the confusing description, it's difficult to articulate.
Best,
Nick
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/04 12:42:43
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The reason that the faders all jump to unity when pressing O is because you have entered offset mode and unless you change a fader in that mode you haven't actually offset anything yet.
If you are sure offset mode is not causing the problem I would leave well alone for now. Offset mode is there to allow you to make overall adjustments of a track without affecting existing automation. i.e. If you lower a volume fader by -3dB in offset mode you are effectively lowering every node on that tracks volume envelope by 3dB even though that isn't reflected in envelope mode. More confusingly, perhaps is that changes made in offset mode aren't reflected in envelope mode either.
I'm a little confused as to what you are seeing exactly. Any chance you can do a screen capture so we can see a video?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Automation question
2012/12/04 14:59:08
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Yes, it would make sense (to me anyway) if, after adjusting something whilst in Offset mode, the envelope would snap to its new position once you go back to Envelope mode, otherwise things could get (for me) horribly messy.
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