Aux sends and panning on tracks?

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Danny Danzi
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2011/10/15 07:41:20 (permalink)

Aux sends and panning on tracks?

Hi guys,
 
Can someone try something for me please or tell me what I'm doing wrong? Here's the scenario...
 
I have an instrument...any instrument...lets say a guitar. I create a bus and drop a Sonitus reverb on it and set it for stereo inside the plug and of course the bus is set for stereo interleave. I set the dry to mute on the Sonitus verb so that I have 100% effect on this bus. I insert the send of this bus to the guitar track. Now, when I move the send pan, shouldn't the effect pan while the guitar stays wherever it is panned on the track? Am I doing this wrong?
 
All I want to do, is control where the verb is in the pan field on that guitar. I know I can do it from the bus itself, but then I'm screwed if I route this bus to anything else that may use this same verb. Isn't it supposed to just pan my effect when using the send pan on the guitar track?
 
I woke up sick as a dog with the worst flu I think I've ever had...so I was thinking maybe my ears ain't right or I'm doing something wrong and missing the obvious. Can anyone set me straight here please?
 
Now the strange thing...if I add a flanger or something...anything but a verb, I have no problems controlling where the effect itself is panned by using the send pan on the track. But use a verb...it stays up the middle no matter what I do. I can't believe I never noticed this before in all my years of doing this. I first thought something in X1 was broken...but it does it in 8.5 too.
 
In case I've lost anyone with my gibberish...sorry, I'm ready to pass out over here and feel like someone is choking me to death from the throat pain.
 
1. Create a blank bus and name it verb.
 
2. Put a Sonitus verb on the bus and make sure it's set for stereo inside the plug where it normally defaults to mono and mute the dry signal on the plug.
 
3. Take a mono or stereo audio or instrument track and right click on it, insert send, select the reverb bus you just created. Pan up the middle on the audio track.
 
4. Track send should be at post and turned on, press play and move the send pan on the audio track left to right.
 
Does your verb go left to right? Mine doesn't and I believe it should, correct? If not, where did I go wrong and how can I fix it without messing with the pans on the bus? Thanks in advance.
 
-DannY
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    mike_mccue
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 08:15:45 (permalink)
    It's the 100% mix... all you are hearing is the "room" which is surrounding you.

    If you mix in some direct signal it will follow the panning on your sends.

    It's different with the other effects because they don't have a room... they just have treated and untreated signal.










    One word: Acoustics.

    best,
    mike

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    #2
    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 08:31:18 (permalink)
    mike_mccue


    It's the 100% mix... all you are hearing is the "room" which is surrounding you.

    If you mix in some direct signal it will follow the panning on your sends.

    It's different with the other effects because they don't have a room... they just have treated and untreated signal.










    One word: Acoustics.

    best,
    mike

    Thanks Mike...that's what I thought too. Now try this...delete the Sonitus instance and bring in Perfect space in place of the Sonitus. Load up a good verb impulse in it, click the wet button on the plug so you have no dry signal...press play and mess with your send pan on your audio track. Hear just the effect panning now? Why does this room pan now and the other didn't? This is exactly what I was hoping to do with the Sonitus....this is still a "room with acoustics" why does it work the way I want using PS?
     
    -DannY
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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 08:36:36 (permalink)
    P.S. If I mixed in dry signal in the Sonitus per your advice, all send pan does is pan the track the same as "track pan" does. It's not moving the effect at all. But with Perfect Space...it does.

    -DannY
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    mike_mccue
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 08:44:11 (permalink)
    Correct only the direct signal will follow the sends.

    The diffuse signal is by definition "diffuse"

    I don't know what to say about Perfect space... but suspect what you are observing is the result of it's quasi stereo routing. Perfect Space's big sister is Pristine Space and it's the full stereo version of that package. Perfect Space is a hybrid mono effect and so perhaps the results are less diffuse than a true stereo algorithmic solution such as Sonnitus Reverb.

    Like I say... it's just a guess... I'll be curious to learn what you find out.


    best regards,
    mike

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    Crg
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 08:46:25 (permalink)
    Did you set up Perfect Space for stereo operation also?

    Craig DuBuc
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    fitzj
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 08:47:16 (permalink)
    http://www.gearslutz.com/...r-reverb-send-pan.html This is a good idea. Hope it helps?
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    fitzj
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 09:36:33 (permalink)
    If you right click over the Send Pan Slider you get an option Follow Track Pan
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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 09:50:30 (permalink)
    Craig: Yeah, set up for stereo.

    fitz: thanks for the read. That was pretty much my su****ion...the only other way would be to put in several instances of the verb with different pans...which I knew about...but was hoping I'd not have to do since what I want to do works with Perfect Space.

    Yeah I tried the Follow Track Pan too....and it does work a little...but it still allows a bit too much verb on the opposite side than I really want. I appreciate your help and everyone else's too. I've got great impulses so I'm going to forget the Sonitus and just use them since I can have the control I need using Perfect Space or Pristine Space. I normally use impulses anyway, but I was trying something for this particular project. I coulda sworn I used to do this send pan thing with the old Cake FX Verb on earlier versions of Sonar....but I tried that and it too stays centered. Oh well...thanks again! :)

    -DannY
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    Keni
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 09:52:27 (permalink)
    I'm a bit confused here... (What's new)?

    From the hardware world, if I set a track's aux to a reverb and adjust the send's pan, it changes the location of the guitar within the reverb field... (i.e. off-center if I choose) and the reverb's reflections should change relative to where the instrument is in the stereo field. If I want to change the reverb's location in the stereo field I change the aux's pan.

    On an aux-reverb, I always have the reverb set to 100%wet as the dry signal is still going to the master.

    If I wnat the reverb to be within the stereo field of the instrument, I insert it (series) on the track and pan the instrument in the master bus there by containing the entire stereo image of the track within the panned position of the track...

    What did I miss this time?

    Keni


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    fitzj
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 09:56:23 (permalink)
      I also found this in the Forum http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1534644
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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 10:06:36 (permalink)
    Keni wrote:
     
    From the hardware world, if I set a track's aux to a reverb and adjust the send's pan, it changes the location of the guitar within the reverb field... (i.e. off-center if I choose) and the reverb's reflections should change relative to where the instrument is in the stereo field. If I want to change the reverb's location in the stereo field I change the aux's pan.
     
    That is correct and that's exactly how this is working for me. However, SOME effects that I place on the bus, literally get controlled in the pan field by panning the AUX pan on the audio track that the bus is connected to. For example, if I put the Sonitus on this bus, it works exactly the way you described it above.
     
    Delete the Sonitus and put in Perfect Space....and when you mess with the send pan slider that is on the audio track, the EFFECT pans, not the instrument. This is what I was hoping would happen with the Sonitus verb.
     
    keni wrote:
     
    If I wnat the reverb to be within the stereo field of the instrument, I insert it (series) on the track and pan the instrument in the master bus there by containing the entire stereo image of the track within the panned position of the track...
     
    Now you lost me on that one. LOL! I know what you mean by putting the verb directly on the tracks...but how do you pan the instrument on the master bus without panning your entire mix? "Master bus" to me means, the bus where all my tracks go. If I pan that, my entire mix will be lop-sided. So unless you're meaning of "master bus" is different than mine, I'm totally confused. LOL! how do you pan a Sonitus reverb when it is on the actual track in the bin? Anything you do there in the bin, effects the entire track. I just want control over how left or right my verb goes and would rather not use the bus it's on to pan it due to that verb being used on a few instruments. If I pan it on the bus, it messes with everything else that verb is connected to. I just want to run my verb, and control how the verb itself pans and wanted to achieve this by using the send pan on the audio track....which works exact the way I want as long as I use an impulse instead of a verb.
     
    What brought me to ask this question was....if perfect space works like this, why won't the sonitus? Understand now? fitz pretty much cleared this up thohgh with the thread he shared.
     
    -DannY
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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 10:14:45 (permalink)
    fitzj


      I also found this in the Forum http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1534644

    LOL fitz...I replied to that thread and totally missed what the guy was having problems with. I guess I didn't read his post carefully enough because I totally missed what he said about the verb not following the vocal...which is exactly what my problem is. And he mentioned the impulse loader...which seems to be the only thing that works for me too. Makes me want to reply back to his thread and say "I'm sorry for not reading your post correctly and responding like an idiot...truth be known, I've been punished for not reading thoroughly enough and have the exact issue you had."
     
    -DannY
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    mike_mccue
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 10:24:08 (permalink)

    Danny,
     I'm looking for an old post that shows how to patch up Perfect Space for true stereo.


     In the mean time you may wish to read this post: http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=1423595

     which specifically addresses your question about Perfect Space.
     


     When I find the thread about how to patch Perfect Space for true stereo... I'll post a link.


     
    post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/10/15 10:31:33

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    mike_mccue
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 10:33:15 (permalink)

    I enjoy using a StudioCat DAW.
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    fitzj
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 10:48:49 (permalink)
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    mike_mccue
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 10:55:33 (permalink)
    That is not the link I was hoping to find.

    There was one made right around the time that thread was current and it described specifically how to set up two instances of Perfect Space on buses to get a true stereo effect

    I just looked all through the search results and I can't find it.

    Anyways, it was a fairly complicated work around... and if you are not patching it for true stereo you aren't really listening to a true stereo effect while using Perfect Space... and that is why it follows the pan.

    best regards,
    mike



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    Guitarpima
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 13:55:23 (permalink)
    If you want the reverb effect on one side only just pan the bus to one side or the other.

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    Keni
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 15:27:55 (permalink)
    Danny Danzi


    Keni wrote:
     
    From the hardware world, if I set a track's aux to a reverb and adjust the send's pan, it changes the location of the guitar within the reverb field... (i.e. off-center if I choose) and the reverb's reflections should change relative to where the instrument is in the stereo field. If I want to change the reverb's location in the stereo field I change the aux's pan.
     
    That is correct and that's exactly how this is working for me. However, SOME effects that I place on the bus, literally get controlled in the pan field by panning the AUX pan on the audio track that the bus is connected to. For example, if I put the Sonitus on this bus, it works exactly the way you described it above.
     
    Delete the Sonitus and put in Perfect Space....and when you mess with the send pan slider that is on the audio track, the EFFECT pans, not the instrument. This is what I was hoping would happen with the Sonitus verb.


    Hmmm... I'll have to try that. The pan on the aux send (track) should pan whatever is the final track output into the stereo inpout field of the bus... For example, if I have straight (mon) guitar and the send is panned left, it should make the reverb on the bus resons with the reflections of a left-based sound source (more tnat right), but this will vary with room shapes as well...

    I should be able to pan one guitar hard left and another hard right and the reverb should hear an input of that balance.... Then produce the relative room reflections

    If I want to pan the effect itself I would expect to do that within the effect or (situation dependent) using either the bus in pan or the bus out pan... Different effect each time...

    But the send pan should not pan the out of the bus's effect...

     
    keni wrote:
     
    If I wnat the reverb to be within the stereo field of the instrument, I insert it (series) on the track and pan the instrument in the master bus there by containing the entire stereo image of the track within the panned position of the track...
     
    Now you lost me on that one. LOL! I know what you mean by putting the verb directly on the tracks...but how do you pan the instrument on the master bus without panning your entire mix? "Master bus" to me means, the bus where all my tracks go. If I pan that, my entire mix will be lop-sided. So unless you're meaning of "master bus" is different than mine, I'm totally confused. LOL! how do you pan a Sonitus reverb when it is on the actual track in the bin? Anything you do there in the bin, effects the entire track. I just want control over how left or right my verb goes and would rather not use the bus it's on to pan it due to that verb being used on a few instruments. If I pan it on the bus, it messes with everything else that verb is connected to. I just want to run my verb, and control how the verb itself pans and wanted to achieve this by using the send pan on the audio track....which works exact the way I want as long as I use an impulse instead of a verb.

    Sorry, I see how that didn't come across right... I meant that by panning the instrument's track, the result that I hear in the master bus should be the entire track with fx panned... For example, a guitar with reverb... If I place a stereo ddl with different left/right (for demo) in series (in the track bin) and pan the track itself left 50%, in the master bus, the left/right delays should appear left and center...
     
    What brought me to ask this question was....if perfect space works like this, why won't the sonitus? Understand now? fitz pretty much cleared this up thohgh with the thread he shared.
     
    It sounds as tho something's "wrong" with one of the plugins... Panning the tracks, fx send should only affect the input signal to the fx bus but there's always the many situations of algorithm where reverb's idea of what to do with input... Is it true stereo input or a mono input into a stereo field? I'm thinking this may be the issue and causing the apparent differences being seen...

    I also seem to remember a hidden switch (ini file?) which changes how the fx send works... but I can't recall what the situation was  as it was long ago.... I'll try to remember...

    I also notice that Perfect space has a wet pan knob within it and the Sontius does not but if you pan the PS internally it will be so for all the instruments going into it.

    I'm guessing it's the mono/stereo input that is in question here...

    Keni


    Keni


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    #19
    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 20:28:34 (permalink)
    Thanks for the links Mike and fitz. I decided to give up on the reverb and just use Perfect Space and Pristine Space.

    Keni: I understand what you mean now, thanks for clarifying. :)

    Robert: You must have missed part of my post. If I pan the bus, anything else that bus is sent to, will be panned and I don't want that. If I use Perfect Space, the bus can remain centered and the send pan on the audio track will control where I want the verb to be. That's how I was hoping the reverb would work, but it doesn't. If I put the verb on and pan the bus like you said, anything else that uses that verb bus will be panned also and I don't want that to happen...so your idea won't work.

    -DannY
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    bitflipper
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/15 23:09:19 (permalink)
    I'm surprised PerfectSpace works that way, as my understanding is that it's not a true stereo reverb. PristineSpace, however, is. The Sonitus is not. I haven't experimented with this in a while, but IIRC the effect send pan doesn't do anything unless you have an actual dual-channel reverb, which neither the Sonitus nor PerfectSpace is. I'll have to do some experiments...


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    bitflipper
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/16 02:12:02 (permalink)
    I have one mono track with a 1KHz sine wave in it, and an aux send to a bus. I've been having a fun time watching waveforms on the bus coming out of various reverbs, seeing the visual effect of various "width" and "modulation" settings.

    For example, when the Sonitus Reverb's "width" setting is zero, the signal on the bus is monophonic - both sides of the stereo bus are identical. But when the width control is set to its default value (100%), the left and right waveforms are quite different. The plugin is creating its own illusion of stereoness that has nothing to do with the incoming signal.

    As the next step, I intended to test a panned send, but the pan control is disabled. Maybe it's just late, but I can't figure out why it's disabled. Any ideas?


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    fitzj
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/16 07:17:31 (permalink)
    According to the manual if the interleave is not set the same on the bus and track it is disabled. Tested cannot disable switching the interleave Right click over the pan and its grayed out. During tests I have the same issue testing in 8.5 I have not tested it with sonar 1c as yet. It seems to get disabled when playing about with settings. If you start a new project the pan is available again. Update Just playing about here this morning. Tested If it's set to Pre on the send it's disabled.
    post edited by fitzj - 2011/10/16 07:46:23
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    Guitarpima
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/16 11:32:49 (permalink)
    Your right Danny. I didn't read it all or else I would have said, "stay in bed and let it run it's course and get well soon."

    I would have said what you already did if I read it correctly. Doh!

    Hope your feeling better!

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    bitflipper
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/16 13:38:17 (permalink)
    RE: send pan disabled. Bizarre, this morning I re-opened my test project and the send pan was enabled even though last night nothing I could do would enable it. Could be a bug, I suppose.

    Anyhow, now that I'm panning my sends I can continue experimenting. I am finding that each reverb plugin I try yields different results.

    Sonitus Reverb, Cakewalk FX:Reverb and StudioVerb2, TAL-Reverb2: send pan has no effect whatsoever.

    PerfectSpace: pan is respected and behaves as I would expected it to with a mono source.

    Valhalla Room, epicVerb, Ambience: pan is partially respected; the image shifts toward the pan direction, but 100% pan does not result in 100% panned output.

    All of these except PS are algorithmic reverbs that make no claims of emulating anything in particular, so their only obligation is to make something that sounds nice. Most combine left and right inputs and then generate a stereo-sounding output based on their own internal logic. All have the ability to create an illusion of stereo-ness that's more or less pleasant.

    What none of the reverbs I have at my disposal can do is create independent tails for left and right stereo channels, even ValhallaRoom, which purports to be a "true stereo" effect. PerfectSpace is the only one that will allow me to pan the source track to one side and the reverb tail to the opposite side.

    Next, I created a stereo track with completely different left and right content: a 1KHz sine on the left channel and a 100Hz sine on the right channel, to see how each reverb handles independent left and right signals. Every reverb combined left and right in the output, including PerfectSpace.

    Bottom line is that even though reverbs can be used to create an illusion of stereo width, they are actually destroying the stereo image of the source tracks in the process.



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    #25
    fitzj
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/16 17:30:37 (permalink)
    http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=67620 Someone has tested a few reverbs.
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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/17 08:04:39 (permalink)
    bitflipper


    RE: send pan disabled. Bizarre, this morning I re-opened my test project and the send pan was enabled even though last night nothing I could do would enable it. Could be a bug, I suppose.

    Anyhow, now that I'm panning my sends I can continue experimenting. I am finding that each reverb plugin I try yields different results.

    Sonitus Reverb, Cakewalk FX:Reverb and StudioVerb2, TAL-Reverb2: send pan has no effect whatsoever.

    PerfectSpace: pan is respected and behaves as I would expected it to with a mono source.

    Valhalla Room, epicVerb, Ambience: pan is partially respected; the image shifts toward the pan direction, but 100% pan does not result in 100% panned output.

    All of these except PS are algorithmic reverbs that make no claims of emulating anything in particular, so their only obligation is to make something that sounds nice. Most combine left and right inputs and then generate a stereo-sounding output based on their own internal logic. All have the ability to create an illusion of stereo-ness that's more or less pleasant.

    What none of the reverbs I have at my disposal can do is create independent tails for left and right stereo channels, even ValhallaRoom, which purports to be a "true stereo" effect. PerfectSpace is the only one that will allow me to pan the source track to one side and the reverb tail to the opposite side.

    Next, I created a stereo track with completely different left and right content: a 1KHz sine on the left channel and a 100Hz sine on the right channel, to see how each reverb handles independent left and right signals. Every reverb combined left and right in the output, including PerfectSpace.

    Bottom line is that even though reverbs can be used to create an illusion of stereo width, they are actually destroying the stereo image of the source tracks in the process.

    Thanks for the extensive research, Dave. Yeah, it seems that Perfect and Pristine both allow me to do what I want. I have to try this with the UAD verbs and see if they allow the send pan. I'm curious to see if the EMT 250 allows for this...since it's like one of the holy grails of verb...or so they say. I'm gonna check this though and get back to you. Thanks again.
     
    -Danny
    #27
    mike_mccue
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/17 08:19:03 (permalink)
    Do you have Pristine Space set up for true stereo?

    If it's set up for mono... it will pan.

    best,
    mike

    I enjoy using a StudioCat DAW.
    #28
    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/17 08:32:53 (permalink)
    I have Pristine set for stereo...seems to work perfectly. Is your Pristine not send panning right from the audio track? If so...try loading another impulse...some of them are a bit freaky I've noticed. I get the best results when I load the same impulse using 2 channels in Pristine and then tweaking it internally. But even with one impulse instance, it seems to pan perfectly for me. If yours isn't, it has to be a per impulse thing I'd imagine...but I really don't know anything about impulses so I'm just guessing. But I have heard a few weird ones that just didn't do what I was hoping. Most times when that happens...it's using free impulses I've downloaded.
    #29
    mike_mccue
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    Re:Aux sends and panning on tracks? 2011/10/17 08:54:31 (permalink)
    I am sort of asking if you have Pristine Space set up for True Stereo. Do You have Pristine Space set up for True Stereo operation?

    I am also sort of implying that it seems as if you don't have Pristine Space set up for True Stereo. Which is why I asked.

    If you leave it running mono then it will pan just as you wish it too. Which is why I am temporarily assuming that you haven't set Pristine Space up for True Stereo operation.


    I've been hoping that at some point you'll have the aha moment and understand the basic underlying idea why some reverb effects don't pan the way you wish. When it makes sense you will no longer have to remember which reverb has what quirk... because once it makes sense you will always be able to figure it out in an instant.


    best regards,
    mike





    I enjoy using a StudioCat DAW.
    #30
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