Helpful ReplyBEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, others ..

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peter434
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2014/11/11 13:27:20 (permalink)

BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, others ..

Hello to everybody,
I'm looking for an equivalent program of Beatscape which allows to drag and drop my personal samples in order to trigger them. I think essentially about making drum beats but maybe with more practical and direct easy functions with an integrated quantizer, step and real time sequencer... I mainly think  N.I. Maschine but it suppose to buy the hardware but in the condition is not a "gas plant" and it's easy;
GEIST seems to be a good choice as well ! For those who use it, does worth it : easy, reliable, efficient ? Above all, is there in Geist, the possibility to play the beat in real time on our controller  (with the sound on sound option) ? Or is there only the graphic step sequence available ? I think I've heard about an update that make possible the real time triggering and direct recording in Geist (?) If someone could confirm that !
 
Thank you very much for your attention.
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dubdisciple
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 14:42:07 (permalink)
I own geist and can say it is unquestionably better at most functions than beatscape. It has a powerful step sequencer but you can use controller to play live and record as you play. It will also sample directly from various sound sources, including from your DAW. The only downsides are a few minor things like not displaying what kit you are playing, occasional sample rate confusion in standalone mode ( may be isolated to me) and lack of recent updates. There has been a hint new version may be coming.
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sharke
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 15:30:30 (permalink)
+100 for Geist. It's incredibly powerful. You can pretty much do all of the drums and percussion for a song in one instance, and build your arrangement in there too. I find that in a lot of cases its in built effects make it possible to mix the whole thing within Geist without using any additional plugins. You can edit and shape each sample to your heart's content.

And if you're into slicing beats from loops, Geist makes that a breeze too. The program has obviously been designed by people who know the ins and outs of beat creation. While there are some improvements I would make, they aren't show stoppers and I believe Geist is the best drum VST I have ever used. It's a pleasure to work with. There's a lot to learn because it's an incredibly powerful program, but luckily it comes with one of the most well thought out and presented manuals in the business. Can't praise it enough.

Although dub is entirely right about it not displaying the kit you are playing. That's a pain - but I wonder if its due to the fact that as soon as you swap out any of the samples (or otherwise edit them) it's not really that same kit? But I digress.

Oh and the browser is pretty good too - it makes searching for samples easy, and you can favorite folders and also "shortlist" loops and samples for a project as you're browsing.

James
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dubdisciple
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 15:48:11 (permalink)
Don't forget it also has a great manual. I'm still scratching the surface of what Geist can do and my biggest obstacle is working out glitches with my MPD26.
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MachineClaw
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 16:24:54 (permalink)
I would say Geist is a good bet if you can get it on a sale or at a huge discount.
 
Maschine software is great but ya have to buy the hardware to get the software.  Maschine Micro is cheaper and comes with full version of Maschine software.
 
Groove Agent is okay but I would rank it #3.
 
I like Geist for the hard work - splicing samples to create beats, programing, drum sequencing.
 
I like Maschine for sequencing and that you can load a VST plugin inside Maschine to get even more out of the software.  For me Maschine is way easier than Geist.
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 17:26:34 (permalink)
Thank you very much for your very appreciated precisions ! 
I hope Geist will be at a discount price for the next black friday or cyber monday !
Maschine is attractive but obliged to buy the hardware : It's a pity that they don't sell only the software like Arturia spark.
Anyway, thank you again !!
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 18:17:56 (permalink)
Geist does go on sale often and appears on KVR regularly too.
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 18:25:49 (permalink)
Thanks for the info ! I will watch closely.
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lawajava
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 23:03:21 (permalink)
Spectrasonics makes Stylus RMX. I can't say enough good things about it. It makes my life on this subject matter sheer bliss.

Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
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mettelus
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/11 23:28:23 (permalink)
+1 to the above. I bought Geist this time last year because of inputs from dub and sharke. Geist goes on sale for 99USD fairly regularly, and is definitely worth checking out. Be sure to run the wheels off the trial too. My favorite feature is "spitter" which allows you to pull audio samples from any track in a DAW (I.e. if it can be heard, it can be sampled/sliced as you see fit).

To me, Geist is a software version of Maschine, and I have lost interest in owning more hardware.

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/12 06:35:15 (permalink)
Great ! Thank you very much to everyone for your opinion and infos !
I downloaded the demo and indeed, Geist has the functions I'm looking for. I just tested to make a pattern with my own samples. However, it is the very first time I'm using it (without referring to the user's guide) and there has some logical operations that are not obvious for me: for instance, the direct manual drag and drop of the samples to the individual pad doesn't work; it's with the "Autoload" function and selecting first the pad and after, the sample in the browser that the sample is assigned...
Without being too demanding, I would like, as you mentionned, to have the explicit names of the pad of the grid that appear ;  have the browser window much larger in order to more easily select the files and samples, as well as the ability to change the pads for keys keyboards...
 
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mettelus
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/12 16:00:33 (permalink)
Geist is definitely a Read the Manual (RTFM) product. It is essentially a DAW unto itself, and some features are not intuitive (or even visible) unless you know they are there and what they do.
 
I made a post last year of the sampling/slicing by taking the first 5-seconds from Phil Collin's "In the Air Tonight." Geist sampled, auto-sliced, and immediately determined bpm for the clip so it was about as "easy" as it comes. Here is the post I made on that which has some detail for just this feature, but definitely RTFM for Geist.

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dubdisciple
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/12 16:54:32 (permalink)
mettelus
Geist is definitely a Read the Manual (RTFM) product. It is essentially a DAW unto itself, and some features are not intuitive (or even visible) unless you know they are there and what they do.
 
I made a post last year of the sampling/slicing by taking the first 5-seconds from Phil Collin's "In the Air Tonight." Geist sampled, auto-sliced, and immediately determined bpm for the clip so it was about as "easy" as it comes. Here is the post I made on that which has some detail for just this feature, but definitely RTFM for Geist.


+1
My son is interested in learning geist and he's very hands on and never reads manuals. Geist is a product that RTFM will save a lot of headaches.
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dubdisciple
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/12 16:55:56 (permalink)
Also, fxpansion put out a series of quickstart videos on youtube that are helpful for those who prefer a visual example approach.
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/12 17:39:35 (permalink)
Thanks a lot for every info you give !
I have some fun with building a pair of patterns with great results concerning the groove and dynamics  ! The quantize function is very efficient and maybe it's just me, but could you confirm that the Sonar quantize function is not as smooth as the Geist one ?
I had nevertheless some concerns :
- I froze Geist to get the audio track (and copy the rendered audio file to another track) : RESULT : there are kick transient missing. Any idea of the cause ?
- When I select  another virtual instrument,which, in principle, stop feeding the midi inputs of the other Vsti or midi program, Geist continues to respond to the keys of my controller ?? So if I want to play another VSTi, I still play Geist (yet unselected !)at the same time.
Thanks in advance if you could give me some ideas !
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dubdisciple
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/12 18:28:23 (permalink)
peter434
Thanks a lot for every info you give !
I have some fun with building a pair of patterns with great results concerning the groove and dynamics  ! The quantize function is very efficient and maybe it's just me, but could you confirm that the Sonar quantize function is not as smooth as the Geist one ?
I had nevertheless some concerns :
- I froze Geist to get the audio track (and copy the rendered audio file to another track) : RESULT : there are kick transient missing. Any idea of the cause ?
- When I select  another virtual instrument,which, in principle, stop feeding the midi inputs of the other Vsti or midi program, Geist continues to respond to the keys of my controller ?? So if I want to play another VSTi, I still play Geist (yet unselected !)at the same time.
Thanks in advance if you could give me some ideas !




Honestly, i never compared quantize head to head to give a fair assessment.  Good question.
 
The freeze issue i have not encountered.  Closest i have come is once i had an issue similar to your second issue and realized it wads a midi echo issue and it was actually not freezing geist but another synth that I was layering. This brings us to the likely cause of your second issue.  Go into the track panel and make sure you are not echoing midi output to geist
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/12 18:37:42 (permalink)
Thanks very much Dub ! I will check that !
But concerning the audio rendering which comes after the synth freeze process, I already encountered that with a Trillian bass sound ! there was saturation !
I'm going to open a new thread to watch if there are similar cases.
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lawajava
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/15 17:02:31 (permalink)
mettelus
+1 to the above. I bought Geist this time last year because of inputs from dub and sharke. Geist goes on sale for 99USD fairly regularly, and is definitely worth checking out. Be sure to run the wheels off the trial too. My favorite feature is "spitter" which allows you to pull audio samples from any track in a DAW (I.e. if it can be heard, it can be sampled/sliced as you see fit).

To me, Geist is a software version of Maschine, and I have lost interest in owning more hardware.



Thanks for mentioning the sale price that might appear from time to time. I'll watch for that as we enter Black Friday mode and see if we get lucky.

Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
#18
peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/15 19:13:46 (permalink)
I indeed have a lot fun and instant gratification with Geist (still demo version which sucks)).I still work with excellent samples for my kits (those from Xclusive-audio that I prefer to all other samples) and it's rather quick to get very good grooves !! I think it's the best and most useful program I have in my plugin arsenal.
I just have a problem with Midi : When I select another instrument , it's always triggered by the Geist pattern playing back (whereas the Midi inputs of Geist are routed to nothing (??) )
I also took a look to Maschine  and it sounds still attractive !
Watching for the Black friday too !
#19
scook
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/15 19:23:21 (permalink)
Geist can generate MIDI output. If you are running X3, the "Enable MIDI Output" is enabled by default when inserting Geist in a project. By default input  on MIDI tracks in SONAR are set to Omni. This means the Geist MIDI output will be picked up by all the other MIDI tracks. To stop this, either turn off "Enable MIDI Output" when inserting the plug-in or by right-clicking on Geist in the synth rack or make sure the other MIDI track are not set to Omni.
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sharke
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/15 23:41:54 (permalink)
I have it ingrained in me now to turn "Omni" off on new MIDI tracks I insert. I really wish there was a true "none" option. 
 
As an aside, it's worth noting that Geist is not just for drums. It's great for chopping up any kind of samples, pitching them up and down and/or time stretching them. You can have lots of fun with bass lines, piano samples, sound effects, anything. I took a piano sample from the included Cakewalk content today and chopped it up into phrases then pitch adjusted them to match the key of my song. It's just so quick and easy. 

James
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/16 05:34:59 (permalink)
Thank you very much Scook and Sharke for these precisions !! I certainly was a little bit confused with all the midi input/output combinations. The fact is it was more comfortable for me to have "omni" enabled because I had to use at least 2 controllers at the same time (one for playing a melodic instrument and another for its keyswitches, while listening the Geist groove)...
Scook (excuse me for my ignorance) but the "Enable MIDI Output" is a default Sonar X3 function or is a proper Geist automatic configuration , because I didn't notice this kind of problem with the other soft synths ?
 
Sharke : I have to deepen all the possibilities of Geist; now I'm just creating small rhythmic patterns! I hope that there are videos showing what you described about the melodic samples. In fact, is it to create realistic sophisticated arpeggios or "crazy" things like you can do for example with Egoist from Sugar Bytes ?
 
Just another questions which are rather worrying since it's related to system stability :
- Is Geist very CPU demanding or very light ? Is it reliable on your systems ?
- Last time, I tested very quickly the different mix presets of Geist, passing from one to another very quickly, and it crashed Sonar, ( there were Fxpansion crash report files that had been created automatically !)
- Now, I'm working on a project, so testing the Geist demo (with every 15 minutes, the Geist demo warning message that sucks !), maybe adding some Midi controller and everything was ok; I made a (long) rest without shutting down or touch anything, and when come back, I had Audio Engine drop outs every second continuously (with the well known message : the audio engine has stopped suddenly...) Given everything worked fine before and it was just a trial project, I closed Sonar and I could work normally. Weird, no ? I don't know if it this is directly related to Geist or its demo version, but if you have any idea or experimented similat things ? (I'm going to make a thread in the Sonar X3 section  because these "little" problems concern me anyway !)
 
Thanks again
#22
scook
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/16 08:59:23 (permalink)
As of X3 any synth that generates MIDI data has "Enable MIDI output" set on by default. Not all synths generate MIDI data. Geist may be the first synth you have used which generates MIDI data.
 
Stability issues after long pauses suggest power settings may need to be reviewed. The machine should be configured to stay powered up all the time, drives and ports should not power down. Also check for background processes and stop them.
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sharke
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/16 14:47:18 (permalink)
I know I had a few crashes with Geist when I was using the demo version - perhaps they haven't updated it. I'm pretty sure there's been a Geist update since I installed the full version. It certainly never crashes my system now. I sometimes have 2 or 3 instances of Geist, each with all 8 engines running (i.e. 8 groups of 16 sample pads, each with their own effects chains, then effects chains on each engine as a whole etc). It seems pretty efficient. 
 
Don't forget you can also route the Geist engines to their own audio outputs so that you can use your own effects. Sometimes I like to process each pad with its own effects in Geist, but then I send the whole group of 16 pads (an engine) to its own audio output so that I can apply my own compressors, distortion etc. 
 
I don't know what you mean about creating sophisticated arpeggios, Geist isn't really a synth, it's just a very powerful sampler/drum machine. What I meant about using melodic samples is that you can work with them just like drum samples, slicing them up and rearranging them and triggering them from pads etc. You can edit the start/end points of each sample, pitch them up and down, time stretch them, apply envelopes etc. 
 
This is a nice video which shows a typical workflow in slicing beats, he also slices a synth pad part and some bass as well. 
 


James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/16 16:50:13 (permalink)
Again a very big thank you for your answers and help !!
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dubdisciple
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/16 16:56:34 (permalink)
There have not been many updates since i purchased, but they did release a beta to owners that resolves some of the issues some had with spitter.
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/16 18:02:13 (permalink)
Ok Dub; thanks !
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mettelus
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/17 01:48:36 (permalink)
sharke
I have it ingrained in me now to turn "Omni" off on new MIDI tracks I insert...



+1... MIDI Omni is your worst enemy! MIDI Omni is the "default" for everything... and any active synth will play what it receives (MIDI controller, synths with MIDI outs enabled, etc.). Develop a habit of assigning channels to MIDI components immediately when inserting things (and keep track of them).

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mettelus
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/17 02:01:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2014/11/17 13:23:01
peter434
- Is Geist very CPU demanding or very light ? Is it reliable on your systems ?



Geist "can" be very intensive on a CPU, so is good practice to "minimize overhead." A "clip" is essentially a "window into a wav file, and it seems Geist loads the entire file to create that window. Effects/processing add to this, so I have gotten into the habit of only feeding Geist "what it needs." If I want only 1 second of a wav file, I chop the original first, and give Geist only that 1 second. It is entirely possible for Geist to load 100MB and play only 5 seconds of it all. Just keep that in mind. I am NOT sure how Geist does its internal processing, but if you feed it a lot, it can easily consume a lot of system resources.
 
It is generally good practice to think of this with any VST/effect. If you have done what you need to do, commit it to a wav file... otherwise SONAR is "processing data" on each run (complex) versus simply playing a wav file back to you (incredibly simple).

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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peter434
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Re: BEATSCAPE : Is there an equivalent plugin maybe more advanced ? Maschine, Geist, other 2014/11/18 09:33:10 (permalink)
Thanks mettelus !
Concerning Midi routing, but, maybe I'm wrong, it seems that even if I specify one specific midi channel input in other soft programs, Geist still is triggering them and all midi programs , whereas it's routed to nothing; So, as Scook suggested, it's necessary to unchek its "Enable MIDI output" because, indeed, Geist may be the first synth I have used which generates overall MIDI data.
#30
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