DJ Darkside
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BUSSING QUESTION
I had a quick question in regards to bussing... I understand how to send tracks to busses and do send effects from busses. The question is: Say I have a few tracks been sent to a bux, for example, kick / snare / hihat / cymbals / etc to a drum bus and then I have another bus for reverb send fx and lastly a bus for my master, to put a limiter do I need to send the drum bus and the reverb bus to the master as well? I usually send the drum bus to the master bus but always question sending the reverb bus to the master bus as well. What would common practice be here, I know there are many ways to do this but would just like some general guidelines and opions please.
post edited by DSProductionz - 2010/09/16 00:55:25
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TracePercussion
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Re:BUSSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 01:32:34
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i wouldnt worry about the reverb with the drums going to the master,
just that if the limiter on the master isnt robbing anything out of your finished drums.
...and if it is, you can adjust the drums bus fx to compensate what you think is missing for post master...of course the drums (pre master) will sound different, but its the end result that matters for the mix down.
just turn them knobs and be blind about where they are, as long as you keep everything inside your meters and it sounds like you want it to.
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CJaysMusic
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Re:BUSSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 01:38:46
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i wouldnt worry about the reverb with the drums going to the master , I 110% disagree!! All buses should go to your master bus, hence the name master. Then the master bus is the only one that goes to your main outs. Otherwise you'll clip your main outs to holy hell if you have a few buses going to it. Cj
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TracePercussion
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Re:BUSSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 02:06:22
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i left out the word bus...
i wouldnt worry about the reverb with the drums going to the master BUS..
..and rereading DS's post i just assumed it was a master bus,
like i think it still is?
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CJaysMusic
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 02:12:13
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All buses should go to the master bus and the master bus is the only bus that should go to the main outs. He states that he has some tracks going to an effect bus. That's not the master bus and he not talking about the master bus. He says there going to an effect bus and that effect bus should go to the master bus. Then that master bus should go to the main outs Cj
post edited by CJaysMusic - 2010/09/16 02:15:58
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...wicked
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 02:23:24
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Yah, there's a reason it's called the "Master" bus. All submasters and effects returns should flow to the master bus.
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 02:51:45
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everything to master-
You need a place where everything eventually goes to, and we music makers call that Master buss
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TracePercussion
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 04:18:33
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whatever Lance. i actually do know better than to tackle fractional sentencing: and lastly a bus for my master, to put a limiter do I need to send the drum bus and the reverb bus to the master as well? ...but i was just trying to help.. geez. and just because im not bronze, gold or purplewhatever doesnt mean squat for whats being made here in comparison to 'you' music makers...like no one here is ? except 'the master of busses' ? i got more of an answer than DS. DanG! how about you following up on my question instead of milking me here and there.. http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2091513 ...if you want to help..
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:BUSSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 06:19:46
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DSProductionz
I had a quick question in regards to bussing... I understand how to send tracks to busses and do send effects from busses. The question is:
Say I have a few tracks been sent to a bux, for example, kick / snare / hihat / cymbals / etc to a drum bus and then I have another bus for reverb send fx and lastly a bus for my master, to put a limiter do I need to send the drum bus and the reverb bus to the master as well? I usually send the drum bus to the master bus but always question sending the reverb bus to the master bus as well.
What would common practice be here, I know there are many ways to do this but would just like some general guidelines and opions please.
Your terminology can lead to confusion. When you say "send" do you really mean setting up a send from the track or do you mean directing the output of a track/bus to another/master bus? You can in Sonar actually do both, which could lead to some very interesting results!
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:BUSSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 09:28:08
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You can have your drum bus go to another bus then to the Master bus, but at the end the Master bus should go to the Main out..
post edited by djjhart@aol.com - 2010/09/16 12:06:09
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Beagle
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 09:41:33
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TracePercussion
whatever Lance.
i actually do know better than to tackle fractional sentencing:
and lastly a bus for my master, to put a limiter do I need to send the drum bus and the reverb bus to the master as well?
...but i was just trying to help.. geez.
and just because im not bronze, gold or purplewhatever doesnt mean squat for whats being made here in comparison to 'you' music makers...like no one here is ? except 'the master of busses' ?
i got more of an answer than DS. DanG!
how about you following up on my question instead of milking me here
and there..
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2091513
...if you want to help..
all tracks and buses should eventually exit to the soundcard thru the master bus regardless of internal routing back and forth. if you route anything directly thru the soundcard then you are mixing at the soundcard and not inside sonar. that very likely will cause clipping since you can't even tell what the final summed signal is being sent to the soundcard for D/A conversion. post count has nothing to do with it except in your mind.
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Middleman
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 10:41:47
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All busses go to the master busses except when external summing! Then you have multiple busses going directly to the soundcard....
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CJaysMusic
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 11:18:18
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You can have your drum bus go to another bus then to the main bus, but at the end the main bus should go to the main out.. Lets not confuse the poster, by main bus, you mean master bus. The word main can confuse the poster and make him think your saying the main outs. Cj
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...wicked
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 12:25:45
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Yah, also, you don't HAVE to use a Master Bus. That's just the way many of us set up our routings so there's a single fader to control and troubleshoot. I highly recommend it but you can have anything you want going straight to your audio interface outs.
In my mind, there are basically four kinds of buses: "submasters" that basically group outputs of like instruments (drums, guitars, vox, etc.); "returns" which contain effects I use sends to (reverb, delay, etc); and a quirky third group we'll call "creative processing" which is for things like parallel compression and other second stage processing. The final type of bus is my master section: a single "Submaster" bus which has my global mixing processing (tape saturation, console saturation, and a stereo widener), which of course feeds into my MASTER bus, which has only a spectrum analyzer on it. The only things that bypass the submaster bus are things like tails from other tracks if I'm checking how a song will flow into another on a whole record and stem mixes if I'm maxing out my DAW.
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Sijel
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 12:40:55
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Yah, also, you don't HAVE to use a Master Bus. That's just the way many of us set up our routings so there's a single fader to control and troubleshoot. I highly recommend it but you can have anything you want going straight to your audio interface outs.
Wow.... wicked just told CJ to answer "it depends". But seriously, I agree with CJ that saying "Main" is ambiguous and can confuse the main bus with the interface outputs.
post edited by Sijel - 2010/09/16 12:42:08
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nprime
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 13:06:40
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What is it about this place that the simplest questions can be convoluted into the most complicated debates?
Simple question: Should all buses route to the Master Buss on the way out of Sonar to the sound card?
Simple answer: Yes.
I cannot imagine why anyone would want to complicate things further by not following this simple rule. I am getting a little tired of the "you can do anything you want" answers. Yes, you can. You can play soccer on the freeway if you want to as well...but should you? Just because you can?
Obviously not.
BTW, I am not a fan of a limiter on the Master Bus. You should not be relying on a limiter to prevent overs on the Master Bus, you should be mixing with care and adjusting your track levels carefully to prevent this. In fact, previous to mastering, I don't think you should be exceeding -6 dB peaks on the Master Bus outputs. I know I say this at my own peril, and no doubt I will now have a barrage of posts telling me why this is not "a rule" either.
I am simply telling you what I know from experience. No one has to listen to me. Its a free country. Everyone can do whatever they want to...
Have fun on the freeway.
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DJ Darkside
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 14:05:50
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To everyone who posted thanks for the entertaining debate from my very simple question... Hehehehhe! I had no idea I would ruffle up so many feather asking this. Basically, everyone answered my question. Send all sub buses to my master bus. That answers it.
Thank you again, and sorry for starting a heated debate!
Mark Liebrand DJ Darkside 2001-20xx www.djdarkside.com ------------------------------------------------------- Running: Windows 10 64 bit, Sonar Platinum, Ableton Live, Novation Impulse, Native Instruments Maschine, a few mics, 1963 Fender Strat, a Fender Jazz Bass and some secret weapons... EQ and Compression.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 14:10:38
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DSProductionz
Thank you again, and sorry for starting a heated debate!
Don't worry about it, you could ask if black was the darkest colour and someone on here would start an argument about it, claiming white is..... it's why I love this forum, not only is it genuinely helpful it is also hugely entertaining...........
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TracePercussion
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 17:50:37
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i do what Wicked does, the spectrum on the Master bus. and i agree BikerDude, this was totally funny and enlightening! playing soccer on the freeway....hahahahaha! its more fun to play kitty soccer with trucks tho.
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...wicked
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 18:34:55
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I don't think it's strange it sparked a debate...or "discussion". Everyone sets up their workspace differently. There's no one "right" answer, so I'm also unsurprised at that. This isn't a question of how to get the NOW time to stop jumping (hit G btw), it's one with many answers.
I think people are assuming that having various answers and opinions on a topic means it's a fight, which this isn't even close to. I mean sheesh, no one says to George Martin "Why do you have so much to say?"
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TracePercussion
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/16 19:09:01
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lol. exactly.
it can also be some things are like what dragonspeak and ozzy would have to go thru.
hey. i heard the free FogPeople tune. its very FrankZappa like, with alittle hop in it at times. ..sure liked when the guitar solo came in...i want to meet the girls. lol
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ba_midi
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Re:BUSSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 02:21:58
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CJaysMusic
i wouldnt worry about the reverb with the drums going to the master
,
I 110% disagree!! All buses should go to your master bus, hence the name master. Then the master bus is the only one that goes to your main outs. Otherwise you'll clip your main outs to holy hell if you have a few buses going to it.
Cj
And I 120% disgree with you :) For example -- I have sub-bussing in my setups. My "drum reverb" bus goes to my "drum submix" bus - not my master bus. My "drum submix bus" doesn't go to the master either! It goes to a "Rythmn Section" bus. My Bass goes to a Bass bus. This bus also goes to the Ryt Section Bus. The Ryt Section bus DOES go to the Master bus. In this way I can solo JUST the rythmn section (bass and drums). That approach, in general, allows for easier "Stem" exports/transfers. Very important in TV, alternate Mixes, etc. That's just one example of ways and reasons some busses go to other busses, rather than ONLY to the master bus. It's not a new technique. It's used often, by many. I would state it that "final stage" busses should go to the "Master Bus", however. So in the example above, the "Ryt Section Bus" is a final stage bus that does just that.
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/09/17 02:45:50
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ba_midi
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 02:29:59
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nprime
What is it about this place that the simplest questions can be convoluted into the most complicated debates?
Simple question: Should all buses route to the Master Buss on the way out of Sonar to the sound card?
Simple answer: Yes.
I cannot imagine why anyone would want to complicate things further by not following this simple rule. I am getting a little tired of the "you can do anything you want" answers. Yes, you can. You can play soccer on the freeway if you want to as well...but should you? Just because you can?
Obviously not.
BTW, I am not a fan of a limiter on the Master Bus. You should not be relying on a limiter to prevent overs on the Master Bus, you should be mixing with care and adjusting your track levels carefully to prevent this. In fact, previous to mastering, I don't think you should be exceeding -6 dB peaks on the Master Bus outputs. I know I say this at my own peril, and no doubt I will now have a barrage of posts telling me why this is not "a rule" either.
I am simply telling you what I know from experience. No one has to listen to me. Its a free country. Everyone can do whatever they want to...
Have fun on the freeway.
Again, I have to disagree. See my reply to CJ. ANd, some of these topics ARE complicated, so they can warrant good debate.
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ba_midi
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 02:41:57
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BTW, I am not a fan of a limiter on the Master Bus. You should not be relying on a limiter to prevent overs on the Master Bus, you should be mixing with care and adjusting your track levels carefully to prevent this. In fact, previous to mastering, I don't think you should be exceeding -6 dB peaks on the Master Bus outputs. I know I say this at my own peril, and no doubt I will now have a barrage of posts telling me why this is not "a rule" either. LOL -- ok, I'll say it: THIS IS NOT A RULE. It's just ONE method. It depends on style of music and many other factors. There are some MAJOR producers who actually keep a "secret" as to - what they call - the Master Bus Plugin Chain. They put ALL kinds of stuff on the master bus! It's just another way of working. I doubt there's anyone on the planet who can tell just what was or wasn't used on the master bus (if they didn't already know). The final/end product is all that matters to some. A lot of modern producers, especially in the techno/electronica/house genre, OFTEN do heavy master bus processing. It's not a rule either way. It's a judgement call. I don't take a stand either way. But I do go both ways with respect to methods, depending on genre, etc. I do take a stand when someone suggests there is only ONE way, however.
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CJaysMusic
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 02:50:37
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In this way I can solo JUST the rhythm section (bass and drums).
That approach, in general, allows for easier "Stem" exports/transfers
The poster isnt talking about stems. Your confusing the poster. The answers I and you should give is for his question. Not 1001 ways to use buses. Let him learn that after he learns a simple gain stage cj
post edited by CJaysMusic - 2010/09/17 02:52:57
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ba_midi
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 03:04:37
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CJaysMusic
In this way I can solo JUST the rhythm section (bass and drums).
That approach, in general, allows for easier "Stem" exports/transfers The poster isnt talking about stems.
Your confusing the poster. The answers I and you should give is for his question. Not 1001 ways to use buses. Let him learn that after he learns a simple gain stage
cj
I'm not sure I follow that. You think we shouldn't offer our own perspective, advice, techniques, etc? I agree that things like "gain staging" are important -- but to stifle input or opinions doesn't make sense. And how do we know the OP isn't capable of absorbing the (ahem) 1001 ways to use bussing -- since his question did encompass bussing? Stems are important - and require a knowledge of bussing. Bussing is important and requires a knowledge of signal flow. Some of you stated there's only one way to deal with busses. I disagree. And I don't think it's right or fair to stifle such discussions, regardless.
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...wicked
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 03:28:24
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CJaysMusic
Let him learn that after he learns a simple gain stage
Ha! I said something similar in that whole "sends" thread, look who is wearing the shoe of one foot now on his other foot! (that should be read with a heavy accent of some kind) @Ba_Midi: yeah, using a "master bus" is just one way, though highly used. In your setup, where does your "rhyth sect" bus output to? Not the "master"? I suppose this whole thing gets upended when you have a large output interface, especially if one is jacked into another piece of gear like a digital mixer. But even if you disagree with that method, you have to acknowledge it's a pretty time-tested workflow. Certainly not one where it would require more disagreement (120%!) than is humanly possible. (srsly ppl, where are you guys borrowing this supernatural disagreement from? I want 20-40% more disagreement too!)
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Sijel
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 11:41:38
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that whole "sends" thread, Hmmm... I don't remember any "sends" thread JK! I see both sides of the coin on this. I've used the dead simple buss setup (literally, 4 tracks to Master buss since I converted the track from my Yamaha 4-trk cassette) and a few highly complex bussing configs (since I needed alternate sub-mixes similar to stemming). Maybe, as a forum norm, we should be distinguishing more often between Basic (Introductory) or Advanced techniques? Perhaps using a code word for a section or sentence of advice (Basic or ADV). Just a thought for what might help people new to a topic, like say, [ADV] using compressors on a Send in the City .
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 11:46:30
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TracePercussion
whatever Lance.
i actually do know better than to tackle fractional sentencing:
and lastly a bus for my master, to put a limiter do I need to send the drum bus and the reverb bus to the master as well?
...but i was just trying to help.. geez.
and just because im not bronze, gold or purplewhatever doesnt mean squat for whats being made here in comparison to 'you' music makers...like no one here is ? except 'the master of busses' ?
i got more of an answer than DS. DanG!
how about you following up on my question instead of milking me here
and there..
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2091513
...if you want to help..
Hey brotehr I wasnt downing you. "We" music makers meant you too lol. I was agreeing with CJAY on everything to buss. Look up my posts dude. Im a helper here, not a basher- Your question was legit- Best, LJ
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ba_midi
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Re:BUSING QUESTION
2010/09/17 11:53:33
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...wicked
CJaysMusic
Let him learn that after he learns a simple gain stage
Ha! I said something similar in that whole "sends" thread, look who is wearing the shoe of one foot now on his other foot! (that should be read with a heavy accent of some kind)
@Ba_Midi: yeah, using a "master bus" is just one way, though highly used.
In your setup, where does your "rhyth sect" bus output to? Not the "master"? I suppose this whole thing gets upended when you have a large output interface, especially if one is jacked into another piece of gear like a digital mixer.
But even if you disagree with that method, you have to acknowledge it's a pretty time-tested workflow. Certainly not one where it would require more disagreement (120%!) than is humanly possible. (srsly ppl, where are you guys borrowing this supernatural disagreement from? I want 20-40% more disagreement too!)
Wicked, I suspect you didn't read my post fully. Yes, the Rythmn Section (Ryt Section) Bus goes to the Master Bus. What I was describing was "sub-bussing" where some busses go to other busses first. Only final stage busses go to the Master Bus in my case. So you didn't fully understand what I said, I think. Of course I have and use a Master Bus. But not each and every bus goes to it. That is, I use sub-bussing as well.
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