Bad Angels Cry Alone

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DarinBad
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2008/08/25 15:10:55 (permalink)

Bad Angels Cry Alone

Hey all! I could sure use some help with this one. I'm preparing to re-track most everything on this, but before I do, I'd like some feedback about what I've got going here. I'm planning on playing the parts pretty much the same as what they are now, just tighter and more refined. I spent just enough time on the mix to (hopefully) make it presentable, so I'm not really looking for feedback on the mix just yet. I'm mostly concerned about the parts playing nicely with each other, in particular, the piano. I'm not a piano player and I'm wondering if I might be better off just dumping it all together. This a rough recording and there are some timing issues and some pitchy vocals, but hopefully it's not bad enough to put anyone off the song itself. Good, bad or ugly, all crits are more than welcome. Fair warning: It's VERY Country. If that's not your cup of tea, I understand.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=867573&songID=6836897

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    jsykes
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/25 15:20:57 (permalink)
    Darin: I think the piano fits nicely and could use more of it, and maybe even a bit of organ in just a few places.

    I think your hook is nice, but there might be too much of a distance between each chorus.

    Just my opinion.

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    Mamabear
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/25 15:28:28 (permalink)
    I like it! Too much piano? Never! I like what you've done with it. I would play it a couple measures longer at the end. At first I thought it was a break and wanted to hear it there, then I realized that was the end of the song. But I still think it would fit nicely. But I'm a little biased I suppose. (I wish I could figure out how to play keys for a country song. Not much luck yet. I'll have to listen to this one some more!) Good song! Reminded me of Kenny Rogers for awhile, and that's a good thing.
    post edited by Mamabear - 2008/08/25 22:54:41
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    Jonbouy
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/25 15:32:48 (permalink)

    It's hard to say anything about it apart from the mix, it sounds like a good song to me.

    The guitar sounds nicely recorded the piano part sounds cool and everything sounds worked out structure wise. Perhaps I'd agree with Jeff that verses could be a little more succinct as the choruses are so strong.

    It's a pity that the vox do sound a little pitchy on this take because there is a lot of vulnerability, particularly at the beginning, in your voice that makes the song sound really convincing and sincere.

    Yeah, its a strong song so the chances are you'll have plenty of options with instrumentation, but I like the sound of it already.

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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/25 16:32:38 (permalink)
    Thanks everyone! It's great to have a set of ears other than my own for a change.

    jsykes, I feel a bit vindicated since you mentioned an organ. I kept hearing a Hammond in there but I couldn't seem to make it work. My skills on the keys are limited to all but the most basic parts. I had a hammond mimicing the piano and it almost worked. Maybe I should revisit that idea and just put a lot more effort into it. As for the song structure, I'm not sure how I could go about changing it around and still keep everything glued together. I think it would require a major rewrite. You've got me thinking though. I'm not against doing a rewrite if it serves the song better.

    Janet, I've heard your piano playing and I am absolutey certain that you can play pretty much anything you want. I hadn't considered the end of the song a whole lot. What you said makes sense and you've given me an idea. Would you be satisfied with just half a measure? I'm going to try it out.

    Jon, thanks for the listen. I always do a "sketch" or "scratch" recording to figure out what I think will work and it's great to know that I'm at least heading in the right direction. I'm going to do some thinking on the song structure. The bad thing about the AABAB song structure is that it can start off so slowly and kill any interest in the song before you get to the meat.

    Thanks all! I really appreciate your time and opinions!

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    Mamabear
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/25 16:53:22 (permalink)
    Well, I've got proof that I can't play anything I want, (or at least what others want) but that's beside the point. Just ask a few guys I've tried to collab with. But anyway...

    Go for the organ sound. I'm not an organ player but it seems like if you play and hold chords, you'll have a great organ sound. Lots less moving around than playing the piano (which is why I find it boring, but I'm probably not doing it right!)

    Half a measure? Make it 1 1/2 and we'll have a deal.
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    No How
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/25 17:49:01 (permalink)
    Darin,

    That's a powerhouse of a song. I loved it. No mix comments just some observations.
    I think you've got a nice window for high simple piano phrase notes at 1:44-1.50 and 3:28-3:36. someone mentioned an organ. might be nice in a kind of 'pad' way, don't know if you would want a lot more going on. Guitars sound mighty fine, loved the start whammy bar and the pristine tones. You've got the voice!

    s o n g s

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    madratter
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/25 18:47:41 (permalink)
    First, I need to tell you that country music isn't my thing - not even remotely my thing.

    1. I thought what Piano could be heard in the mix worked well. There may be more that is getting lost in the mix. I'm not sure.
    2. I found the dives a little distracting in places.
    3. I would bring up the tempo a bit in the verses.

    I think the vocals will be very nice once the pitch problems are worked out. And hey, I made it through the song and I'm not a country music fan so that is a good sign
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    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/25 21:43:25 (permalink)
    I like this tune....I like country, and this is a good old cheating country song...I could hear Gene Watson, or someone similar singing this. Nice mix...I was expecting to hear a steel guitar on the chorus....that's about all that was missing.

    You did a decent job on the vocals on this...I like your voice when you are in your range. There's a few places where you are trying to hit notes below your comfort zone... try moving those notes up into your range.

    bring a few db more in on the bass.

    The piano parts are tastefully done.

    All in all a good song.

    The clean guitar and the string bends are country through and through.

    This is one I will add to my IPOD Cakewalkers play list.
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2008/08/25 21:45:02

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    marcos69
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 01:06:48 (permalink)
    This is a great song. I don't hear an organ in this, but this tune is crying for a pedal steel guitar.
    post edited by marcos69 - 2008/08/26 01:07:49

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    mgh
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 06:28:10 (permalink)
    yeah marcos is right - pedal steel or some slide guitar, i guess. nice tune, it avoids most of those country cliches i think!

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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 07:12:19 (permalink)
    Rick: That's quite a compliment my friend. Thanks! I'm going to see about adding in what you suggested in those short passages. Great idea. One of the problems that I ran into when I first started tracking this was that it became very "busy" when I tried to put in all the stuff I was hearing (which means I probably just didn't play it right). So I "Dumbed" it down quite a lot. Too much in some areas I think. Your suggestion about the piano riff on the end would probably make Janet happy and keep me out of hot water. I know exactly what you're referring to about the organ. That's why I initially gave up on it. It was just "too much"..... I still hear it though, and I think I'm going to try a different approach to it. Keep it inconpicuous like you're saying, and only let it out to play during play time. Maybe even let it have a shot at those short passages you mentioned.

    madratter: I really appreciate you taking the time for this. I know how tough it is to do it when the music/song isn't in your genre (especially if it's waaaayyyy out of your genre). It's something that I've been working on my self and have been pleasantly surprised to find my musical appeciation widen quite a lot by listening to new things and being a bit more open minded. Ya, there is much of the piano getting lost in the mix. I had to record the right hand in one pass and then left hand on another. I need to go in and adjust the velocities so everything comes through the way it should. I also muted parts that were in there and seemed a bit busy. So the right hand piano is indeed completely gone in some places. I've never tried tempo changes. I was always taught that that was a no-no in this genre, but I'm not against giving it a shot. I'm going to lay off some of the dives as well. Especially the one where the lead guitar comes in at the middle of the last verse. Thanks for your time and your ears, and glad you made through the whoile song.

    Herb: Thanks! I'm going to try some slide work on the guitar to somewhat emulate a steel. I'm out of practice on that. I think the vocal will be within range on a good day. If not, I'll try your suggestion and see how it comes across. If that doesn't work, then I may try bringing the whole song up half a step. I certainly didn't expect anyone to add this version to there ipod. It's quite a compliment. Thank you Sir!

    Mark: Yep! It's crying for a steel guitar. All I can do is try and fake it with a slide. I do have a fellow musician who might be willing to take a day and record a part for me. Maybe a twelve-pack and some good food would do the trick. Thanks for the listen!

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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 07:16:14 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: mgh

    yeah marcos is right - pedal steel or some slide guitar, i guess. nice tune, it avoids most of those country cliches i think!



    Thanks for the listen mgh! I tried very hard to avoid those cliches. Not that all them cliches are bad, just overused.

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    SteveStrummerUK
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 07:33:17 (permalink)

    I like this Darin.

    As others have said, you've definitely got the voice for singing this sort of music and I think you carry the song extremely well, I can't see there's an awful lot wrong anywhere, the performance and the recording are very accomplished and the mix sounds just great on my system.

    BTW I love the title - I reckon it would make a great name for a heavy metal song!

    Nice work indeed

    Steve

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    sja
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 08:16:43 (permalink)
    Darin,

    Yes very country, but you've got a great song here in my opinion. Nice guitars. I thought the piano works well. I like the runs you have in the transitions. I probably don't have anything else to add that the others have said.

    Nice work. By the time you have your final polished version, it will be a very impressive offering for that genre.

    sja

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    tyacko
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 08:30:24 (permalink)
    Darin,

    Very strong song. Your chorus is very strong. I like the harmonies you've placed there. I especially like the acoustic guitars. If your going to retrack this DON"T TOUCH THOSE. I can't emphasis that any more than that. They sound great. I'm not a piano player and I know what you mean. Being a guitar player you want to have more "feel" out of the part to play against your guitar work but I think you did a very fine job with it.

    I actually felt like I heard some Eagles style guitar work in this one which I really enjoyed. What guitars/amps are you using in this song?

    There were a couple spots early in the song where your vocal was a little out of pitch. Not by much, but could be fixed up a bit with V-Vocal (if you're using Sonar Pro Edition). As others have stated, I'm not really into country but the last few I've heard here have really been very well done (yours included).

    Again, very nice well thought out song.

    Tom
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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 08:37:35 (permalink)
    Steve and sja, Thanks for your time. I truely appreciate having the extra sets of ears. It's just so hard to remain objective with my own stuff. The vocal track on this version was a quick one. I practiced it just enough to not sound like my old hound dog and scare everyone off. The runs into the chorus was one of the aspects in the recording that I was concerned with. I think that with some tighter playing they'll come off OK.

    Really happy that you like the song! It's always been one of my favorites. Thanks!

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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 08:50:38 (permalink)
    Hi Tom. The acoustics are about the thing that I was thinking of keeping (and the piano, but building on it). I'm glad that you mentioned it. I have a couple of guitars that I built that I'm using here. The lead guitar is actually a Squire strat that I replaced the pickups with some Fender Vintage Noiseless, and recorded direct and then fed through Aplitube 2. The guitar in the left field is a Tele that I built and is also recorded direct. It sounded so good as it was that I didn't do anything but put some compression on it. As for the guitar in the right field, I don't remember what I used... I have a Fender Hotrod Deville tube amp that I'll probably use when I re-track. I've used it on some other stuff and it sounded pretty sweet. At last weekends gig it was getting funky on me though. Getting real loud and then quieting down. It about scared our poor bass player to death (not to mention me). I'll be experimenting with both methods for sure. Thanks again!

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    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 09:38:15 (permalink)
    Darin,

    You have to be careful when trying to emulate a steel guitar on a normal 6 string guitar, using a slide. It takes a really good slide player to even come close. The problem lies in the fact that the steel has levers and pedals that can raise and lower one note in a chord that is already ringing.... that's hard to duplicate on a slide.

    However...adding a slide/dobro sound to a country song gives it a whole different feeling....so that in itself might work.

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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 09:55:52 (permalink)
    I hear ya Herb! There's really no replacement for a real pedal steel guitar, but like you say, some slide guitar could go a long way in this. I use to be quite adept with a slide, but that was a long time ago. I completely quit music for a long time and lost some of my skills as a result. It's nothing that I can't re-learn though, so I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens.

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    ed_mcg
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 14:19:34 (permalink)
    This is a good song and I like the arrangement, but definitely, add the pedal steel.

    The vox has a bit of 600Hz honk in it, bring that down a dB and add some highlights to it (4K ~ 8K) will make it shine more.
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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 15:11:27 (permalink)
    Thanks Ed. I'll keep the EQ suggestion in mind when it's time to mix, as I'll be using the same mic and that's good to know. As much as I would like to, I'm not sure that I'll be able to get a steel guitar in there. Thanks for the listen!

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    Taylor_514C
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 17:28:33 (permalink)
    Nice song Darin - excellent vox and a solid hook on the chorus. The electric sounds great - is that a Telly?
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    tdye
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/26 22:30:03 (permalink)
    Darin, I love it brother. Keep the piano, definitely. Country rocks!

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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/27 11:08:45 (permalink)
    Tayloy_514C,
    Yes, the guitar in the left field is a Tele, recorded direct. Thanks for the feedback. It's much appreciated!


    Tom,
    I'm gonna keep the piano for sure. And yes, coubtry does rock! Thanks for the listen!


    Thank you all! I'm going to start re-tracking the first chance I get, and thanks to all the great suggestions and ideas, I think I'll end up with a much better track than I might have otherwise. Thanks for your time and your ears!

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    Beagle
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/28 22:39:26 (permalink)
    Hey, Darin - I missed this one earlier. nice work! I don't have anything new to add except my support! I really like the intro you have on this and like the way the other instruments kick in after it. good job!

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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/28 23:59:04 (permalink)
    Thanks Reece. After getting some great suggestions, the pressure is on to make good use of them. Thanks for the listen!

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    Paul Russell
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/29 12:49:22 (permalink)
    Great voice! Tighten up the timing, and add the pedal steel and you're almost there.


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    DarinBad
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/29 17:59:45 (permalink)
    Thanks Paul. I'll be taking a lot more time and care with evrything when I start re-tracking. I'm not sure what I can do about a pedal steel. I may have to settle for some slide guitar. Thanks for checking it out.

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    gdugan
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    RE: Bad Angels Cry Alone 2008/08/29 18:02:55 (permalink)
    Darin,

    I agree with Paul. Great song and great voice! Definitely a keeper, and the piano is very nice. Tighten up the timing, add some pedal steel (there's a couple of guys on this forum that can do a superb job for you), some tasty but not overdone strings and you've got a winner!

    Kenny Rogers would be proud.
    post edited by gdugan - 2008/08/29 18:05:00
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