Helpful ReplyBandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder

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taccess
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2018/06/08 02:29:03 (permalink)

BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder

I use Cakewalk and Ableton as my DAWs.
I have spent alot of time sorting out my custom plugin menu inside cakewalks Plugin Manager.
 
I have decided to sort out c:Program files >Cakewalk > VstPlugins to match the plugin manager compressors limiters dynamics etc etc.
This has enabled me to have everything sorted for Ableton and Cakewalk.
 
The problem is when i fire up platinum it begins a scan of the plugin menu but it will not scan because the alpha numerical limit is reached inside platinum. ( Yes i have confirmed this is what is happening ) so i am unable to use platinum.
 
Ableton has no problem with the folder structure and i say this OnLy so that we know its not a windows 10 alpha numerical limitation.
 
I could have two separate VST folders but i want to believe that platinum is on a path to a better place and the little things like this are just important to BandLab as it is to there users.

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#1
pwalpwal
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/08 09:16:15 (permalink)
can you give an example of a long filepath that's being rejected? (or just the longest one in your folder hive if the error isn't specific)

just a sec

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/08 18:00:02 (permalink)
How did you confirm that this was the problem?
Can you list the path it wont scan?

Noel Borthwick
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Studioguy1
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/08 18:54:44 (permalink)
I'd sure be interested in knowing what that number was.  My friend's Cakewalk loads over 4000 plugins.  Just what number are you at?

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taccess
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/09 02:40:46 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
How did you confirm that this was the problem?
Can you list the path it wont scan?


Hi Noel
 
What i did to confirm that it was very simple actually.
I cut and pasted the whole C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins folder to my D drive.
I then pasted my Effects folder "s" back to C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins one at a time, firing up platinum to see if the vst scan would run.
When i reached a folder alphabetical "length" that stopped the platinum vst scan i narrowed that folder to the actual plugin causing the scan to not run.
Then i reduced the alphabetical characters until it did scan making sure it was not the plugin itself.
Its definitely a alphabetical character limit inside platinum, that is not a windows restriction confirmed two ways
1) Ableton reads all the folders regardless of the character lengths.
2) Cut and pasting from C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins to D:Drive allows windows to let me know if i have reached a character limit inside windows 10.
 
I should say that my  C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins i have two top hierarchy folders
Effectz:
Instumentz :
 
as an example :
C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins\EffectZ\Dynamics\Dynamics - Compressor\Compressor - Variable MU\Variable MU - Emulation\Fairchild 670\UAD\UAD Fairchild 670.dll
A further example of the dynamics folder structure is :
Effectz :
Effectz > Dynamics
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Compressor
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - EQ
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Gate
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Limiter
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Modulation
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Multi Processing
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Rack
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Saturation
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Transient
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Utility
Effectz > Dynamics > Dynamics - Vintage
 
I am only asking for platinum's character length to be extended to match windows 10'z limit.
Platinum is my main DAW.
Please
 
 
 

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vladasyn
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/09 03:57:10 (permalink)
I know what the problem is. It is OCD. 

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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/09 03:58:31 (permalink)
taccess
When i reached a folder alphabetical "length" that stopped the platinum vst scan i narrowed that folder to the actual plugin causing the scan to not run.



That's good troubleshooting. Did you make a note of or remember which folder that was?
 
I suspect for the programmers to track this issue down, and see if they can easily make it work the way you would like, it would help to know the length of the string that breaks the scan.
 
I'll take a guess and say 256 characters. ;-)

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/09 04:24:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Daibhidh 2018/06/14 05:47:22
Will look into it. There are path size limits in Windows unless one uses UNC paths. The folder you quoted is within those limits however.

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vladasyn
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/09 04:41:32 (permalink)
My old computer (2013 Core i7) fails scans and hangs frequently- there was issue with scans that never got resolved, just improved. 

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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/10 00:16:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Daibhidh 2018/06/14 05:47:15
vladasyn
I know what the problem is. It is OCD.



ActuaLOL!
 
Bad Vladasyn.
 
But really, since Windows 10 has lifted the 256 character limit on path namespace, it's good that Ableton user taccess found it during the "Early Access" phase, isn't it? The VST scanner goes back to the Win32 filesystem, so it might be built assuming its limitations.

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taccess
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/10 05:57:35 (permalink)
It seems as though platinum does reach windows 256 character length currently.
 
I decided to create a VStPluginZ folder in the same location and copy and paste the VstPlugins folder to it to see if windows alerts to filename/s too long.
I was worried that using an external HDD to test the character length may give a false reading and it did.
When copying to VstPluginZ windows alerted to Blue Cat Audio Data folder.
 
When i reduced the filename length of the Blue Cat folder one character the platinum scan ran, when i added the extra characters Platinum scan hung. So i decided to dig deeper.
 
So i downloaded tree size professional.
I then did a character length scan on the Blue Cat Audio folder located in the Cakewalk VstPlugins directory.
I have found that if the total character length reported by TreeSize is 285 then platinum will scan ( Either via the startup Vst Scan or the Plugin Manager scan).
If the total character length reported by TreeSize is 286 then platinum will :
A) Hang on the startup Vst scan.
or
B) Crash the cakewalk plugin manager scan.
Both of these are comfortably beyond the windows 10 character limit of 256 characters.
 
My apologies Noel for stating in my title that platinum did not scan the 256 character limit, i was confused by the external HDD character test i was applying combined with Ableton's ability to currently scan file lengths longer than 286 characters.
 
I don't want to waste anyone's time so i dove into this properly this morning to make sure.
 
I guess some good may come from this and that is if your Vst scan hangs please check the following.
 
1) Download TreeeSize Professional Trial version ( Run as Admin )
2) In the TreeSize GUI > On the "Home" Tab > Click "Select directory to scan" then navigate to and select: C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins.
3) In the TreeSize GUI > Click the "Tools" tab > Then Click " Open TreeSize file search " >scroll down to and select : " Files with long paths "
4) A new window will now pop up displaying all the files located at ( C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins ) that are above 255 characters.
5) Now select the tab  " Other Filters " > then scroll down to " Full Path longer than : " > change this value from 255 to 285 > Then click start ( located top left of GUI)
6) You should see no files displayed now, however if you do then you have a file longer than 285 inside your
( C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\VstPlugins ) folder and that is why your Platinum Vst Scan is hanging.
 
Remember the Maximum File/Character length for the Cakewalk Vst Scan to function is 285.
 
Please forgive me and thanks for your help.
 
 
 

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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/10 08:07:44 (permalink)
I can’t imagine a fix being released for Platinum. If there is a real issue that Noel can find I’m pretty sure the fix will only be applied to CbB.
They would have to go back to the code from the Oct/2018 release of Platinum; 7 months ago.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/10 13:15:45 (permalink)
The max length of path's is defined by a constant in Windows called _MAX_PATH which is defined like this
#define _MAX_PATH 260 // max. length of full pathname
 
While the OS itself supports longer paths (with the NTFS file system) most of the Win32 API file system API is limited to 260 char paths. You can read more about it here if you are technically inclined. To utilize long paths an application has to use a special prefix on the file name and also the enumeration API's are different.
In not a trivial thing to change since there are many dependencies on standard path lengths all over in Windows.
I had to deal with this in the clean audio command since this was one of the root causes for it hanging.
 
I'll look into the VST scanner as well. While I can fix the hang actually handling the longer paths might be harder to do due to dependencies. Even if we fix it the user may need to "opt in" for long path support since its not enabled by default. Caution: Its possible that enabling that may cause other apps on the system to crash. Most Windows apps have this limitation is it has been there since the beginning of time so internal data can get corrupted if suddenly long paths are available in the app before the app is long path aware. 
 
Obviously this will only be addressed in CbB not earlier versions of the software.

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pwalpwal
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/10 14:09:16 (permalink)
is this the old 8.3 chestnut again?

just a sec

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/10 14:32:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2018/06/10 15:38:15
pwalpwal
is this the old 8.3 chestnut again?



No you are confusing paths with file names. the 8.3 file name collisions related to scanning were removed a long time ago. This issue affects any Windows app that tries to access paths that are greater than 260 characters.

Noel Borthwick
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pwalpwal
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/10 15:41:44 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
pwalpwal
is this the old 8.3 chestnut again?



No you are confusing paths with file names. the 8.3 file name collisions related to scanning were removed a long time ago. This issue affects any Windows app that tries to access paths that are greater than 260 characters.


yeah you're right, just wondered if in the days of 8.3 the path limit was shorter (without bothering to check) and there was some hungover bit of code from then, but no

just a sec

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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/14 05:53:11 (permalink)
Does this mean I can't use this folder structure for Cakewalk?

C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Virtual Studio Technology Plugins\Virtual Studio Technology Plugins 64-bit\Virtual Studio Technology Plugins 64-bit Version 3\Virtual Studio Technology Plugins 64-bit Version 3 Effects > Virtual Studio Technology Plugins 64-bit Version 3 Effects Dynamics > Virtual Studio Technology Plugins 64-bit Version 3 Effects Dynamics - Multi Processing

You mean the plugin system can't handle that?  
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/14 07:01:55 (permalink)
And here I am, mainly storing my plug-ins in C:\Vstplugins\[Developer], making all categorizing in my plug-in menu layouts. Man, I really must be oversimplifying things.
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Re: BandLab Can u please extend the Aplha numerical limit on the plugin folder 2018/06/14 09:27:54 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
pwalpwal
is this the old 8.3 chestnut again?



No you are confusing paths with file names. the 8.3 file name collisions related to scanning were removed a long time ago. This issue affects any Windows app that tries to access paths that are greater than 260 characters.




This is still a slight issue: eg. there are CW plug-ins that have different 8.3 filenames in 32 and 64 bit versions (I forget which off the top of my head - it's one of the percussion strip or similar) which leads to the plug-ins needing to be added twice to a custom plug-in layout if you want to use the same layout in both bitness versions.  The plug-in has the same UID, so moving between versions of CW/SONAR are fine, but a manual plug-in layout needs the extra step.  Less of an issue now CbB is 64 bit only but...

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