Rimshot
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Beatles early 60's reverb?
Having fun with X1. I grew up with the Beatles early hits and I am experimenting with trying to emulate some of their sound. I have learned that they used plates and echo chambers at Abbey Road. Has anyone emulated the reverb (plate) sound the Beatles used in the 60's using either Sonitus or Lexicon reverbs (that come with X1)? I was doing some research on this last night and thought I would ask. If you do have something close with these effects, can you email the patch? Here is a link to "She's A Woman" on YouTube. I believe the track is in mono. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqBkZfdOl-w Thanks for any info you can provide. Rimshot
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 16:08:21
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I've never looked for one... but you might want to search for IRs from Abbey Road to use in Perfect Space.
I often times use IK Multimedia's CSR Plate reverb VST.
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timidi
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 16:13:47
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don't know about the reverb. I think any of the plugs would work (roll off a lot of highs and boost around 300hz). Thanks for the link. I played some others and came up with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1YIk6_AEF4&feature=related If you record the audio there, and only use the right side, you may have a singer :)
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Rimshot
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 16:26:39
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Thank you Mike and timidi! I will keep researching. I thought this an interesting question and appreciate your response. timidi, I listene to alot of those early sixty outtakes last night and really enjoyed it. Love the guitar sounds a whole bunch!
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LANEY
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 16:33:55
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i7/16GB ram Win 7 x64 SONAR Platinum Producer x64 VS-700 C&R Octa-Capture and VS-100 for live recording
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LANEY
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 16:47:06
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i7/16GB ram Win 7 x64 SONAR Platinum Producer x64 VS-700 C&R Octa-Capture and VS-100 for live recording
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jonny3d
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 17:21:52
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bitflipper
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 19:36:54
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Owsinski makes an interesting point that I hadn't given any thought to before: placing the EQ on the way in to the reverb sounds different from EQing the output of the reverb. Makes sense. I do know that sticking an EQ plugin in front of PerfectSpace sounds better than using PS's built-in EQ.
I have a pretty large collection of IRs, but not one is from a real echo chamber. Maybe because there are so few of them left. Anyone know if EMI still has one?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 22:00:51
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bitflipper
Owsinski makes an interesting point that I hadn't given any thought to before: placing the EQ on the way in to the reverb sounds different from EQing the output of the reverb. Makes sense. I do know that sticking an EQ plugin in front of PerfectSpace sounds better than using PS's built-in EQ.
I have a pretty large collection of IRs, but not one is from a real echo chamber. Maybe because there are so few of them left. Anyone know if EMI still has one?
Captiol Records does, The Beatles had all sorts of tricks for Reverb, the echo chamber under Abbey Road (I think that answers your question bitflipper, I remember they do, they had to use it for some of the remixing and mastering recently), someone else suggest the EMT 140, I agree with this as plate reverb was the other big thing after chamber verb in the 60's. I was reading somewhere the other day, I can't remember, that The Beatles piped or it may have been The Beach Boys, their music into a stairwell and used that as an echo chamber and of course most of Johns vocals are slapback tape echo. What you the OP need to understand there is no magic button that will give you that sound, this is the great lie DAW manufactures and "audio engineers" try to perpetuate. It's garbage, The Beatles sounds or to make Beatle sounds are complex and to replicate them on a DAW, well lets just say the formula changes again. For instance Geoff Emerick (if you don't know who is I am wasting my time) I read a couple of days ago, to get Ringo's drum sound I can't remember which track used 4 Fairchild limiters in sequence. So almost parallel, parallel compression. Then there are the stories of tea towels on drum kits to deaden Ringo's drum sound. Christ it was against the rules to "close" mic anything in those days. The boffins would come down and say NO!!! I hope you get my point OP, as Roger Waters once said "you can give a bunch of guys some synthesizers but it doesn't turn them into us, Pink Floyd. So the lesson of this rant is EXPERIMENT because this is what The Beatles did and guess what, some of the things that they did to get their recordings have been lost. This is what happens when you experiment, you forget to write it down and that would take away the magic. Ok to be a little nice try a tape echo and a leslie speaker vst combo, this will give you a late Beatles 67-70 reverb sound or one of the tricks the beatles used oh and get yourself a Fairchild Limiter, this one compressor is the meat and potatoes of all Beatle records. If you want a Beatle lesson I will quite happily give, not saying I know everything but I am aufait with their recording career and I know some tricks, failing all of this find a copy of The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions Mark Lewison, I have a PDF version of this book because it is out of print, there is alo another book that details the equipment The Beatles used on each on their recording sessions. Peace Ben
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Keni
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 22:14:23
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BenMMusTech
bitflipper
Owsinski makes an interesting point that I hadn't given any thought to before: placing the EQ on the way in to the reverb sounds different from EQing the output of the reverb. Makes sense. I do know that sticking an EQ plugin in front of PerfectSpace sounds better than using PS's built-in EQ.
I have a pretty large collection of IRs, but not one is from a real echo chamber. Maybe because there are so few of them left. Anyone know if EMI still has one?
Captiol Records does, The Beatles had all sorts of tricks for Reverb, the echo chamber under Abbey Road (I think that answers your question bitflipper, I remember they do, they had to use it for some of the remixing and mastering recently), someone else suggest the EMT 140, I agree with this as plate reverb was the other big thing after chamber verb in the 60's. I was reading somewhere the other day, I can't remember, that The Beatles piped or it may have been The Beach Boys, their music into a stairwell and used that as an echo chamber and of course most of Johns vocals are slapback tape echo.
What you the OP need to understand there is no magic button that will give you that sound, this is the great lie DAW manufactures and "audio engineers" try to perpetuate. It's garbage, The Beatles sounds or to make Beatle sounds are complex and to replicate them on a DAW, well lets just say the formula changes again.
For instance Geoff Emerick (if you don't know who is I am wasting my time) I read a couple of days ago, to get Ringo's drum sound I can't remember which track used 4 Fairchild limiters in sequence. So almost parallel, parallel compression. Then there are the stories of tea towels on drum kits to deaden Ringo's drum sound.
Christ it was against the rules to "close" mic anything in those days. The boffins would come down and say NO!!!
I hope you get my point OP, as Roger Waters once said "you can give a bunch of guys some synthesizers but it doesn't turn them into us, Pink Floyd.
So the lesson of this rant is EXPERIMENT because this is what The Beatles did and guess what, some of the things that they did to get their recordings have been lost. This is what happens when you experiment, you forget to write it down and that would take away the magic.
Ok to be a little nice try a tape echo and a leslie speaker vst combo, this will give you a late Beatles 67-70 reverb sound or one of the tricks the beatles used oh and get yourself a Fairchild Limiter, this one compressor is the meat and potatoes of all Beatle records.
If you want a Beatle lesson I will quite happily give, not saying I know everything but I am aufait with their recording career and I know some tricks, failing all of this find a copy of The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions Mark Lewison, I have a PDF version of this book because it is out of print, there is alo another book that details the equipment The Beatles used on each on their recording sessions.
Peace Ben
Hi Ben... I have Lewisohn's other book... The one that documents the days and nights... It covers some tech stuff but I'd love to get more... Is the PDF available for sale somewhere? Thanks... Keni
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mumpcake
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 23:39:33
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LANEY
Here are some more great reverbs
http://www.memi.com/echochamber/responses/index.html
It is in german but chrome can translate it
the file vss3_24bit.zip or 32it is also available
Has a file in music called the_studio and it sounds good
Thanks, I had not seen that one before.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/30 23:46:10
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Keni
BenMMusTech
bitflipper
Owsinski makes an interesting point that I hadn't given any thought to before: placing the EQ on the way in to the reverb sounds different from EQing the output of the reverb. Makes sense. I do know that sticking an EQ plugin in front of PerfectSpace sounds better than using PS's built-in EQ.
I have a pretty large collection of IRs, but not one is from a real echo chamber. Maybe because there are so few of them left. Anyone know if EMI still has one?
Captiol Records does, The Beatles had all sorts of tricks for Reverb, the echo chamber under Abbey Road (I think that answers Hi Ben... I have Lewisohn's other book... The one that documents the days and nights... It covers some tech stuff but I'd love to get more... Is the PDF available for sale somewhere? Thanks... Keni your question bitflipper, I remember they do, they had to use it for some of the remixing and mastering recently), someone else suggest the EMT 140, I agree with this as plate reverb was the other big thing after chamber verb in the 60's. I was reading somewhere the other day, I can't remember, that The Beatles piped or it may have been The Beach Boys, their music into a stairwell and used that as an echo chamber and of course most of Johns vocals are slapback tape echo.
What you the OP need to understand there is no magic button that will give you that sound, this is the great lie DAW manufactures and "audio engineers" try to perpetuate. It's garbage, The Beatles sounds or to make Beatle sounds are complex and to replicate them on a DAW, well lets just say the formula changes again.
For instance Geoff Emerick (if you don't know who is I am wasting my time) I read a couple of days ago, to get Ringo's drum sound I can't remember which track used 4 Fairchild limiters in sequence. So almost parallel, parallel compression. Then there are the stories of tea towels on drum kits to deaden Ringo's drum sound.
Christ it was against the rules to "close" mic anything in those days. The boffins would come down and say NO!!!
I hope you get my point OP, as Roger Waters once said "you can give a bunch of guys some synthesizers but it doesn't turn them into us, Pink Floyd.
So the lesson of this rant is EXPERIMENT because this is what The Beatles did and guess what, some of the things that they did to get their recordings have been lost. This is what happens when you experiment, you forget to write it down and that would take away the magic.
Ok to be a little nice try a tape echo and a leslie speaker vst combo, this will give you a late Beatles 67-70 reverb sound or one of the tricks the beatles used oh and get yourself a Fairchild Limiter, this one compressor is the meat and potatoes of all Beatle records.
If you want a Beatle lesson I will quite happily give, not saying I know everything but I am aufait with their recording career and I know some tricks, failing all of this find a copy of The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions Mark Lewison, I have a PDF version of this book because it is out of print, there is alo another book that details the equipment The Beatles used on each on their recording sessions.
Peace Ben
Hi Ben...
I have Lewisohn's other book... The one that documents the days and nights... It covers some tech stuff but I'd love to get more... Is the PDF available for sale somewhere?
Thanks...
Keni
Keni, no and it pains me to say this I got my brother to download it for me, it was for my research last year. I will try and figure some way to get it to you because the file is 20 odd meg the Email limitaions kick in. Give me a day or two to figure it out and I will PM or if you have a way also let me know and no I won't do this for everybody, Keni, yes, OP, yes and a couple of others but I can't spend all day sending 20 meg emails. Peace Ben
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Rimshot
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/31 00:07:14
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Thanks to all for your input! I am following all links. I love this topic. Ben, I would love a PDF of the book you mentioned. I was a recording engineer/producer and studio drummer in L.A. for many many years and I would appreciate that book very much if it is available for sale. I don't have any hope to reproduce the Beatle's sound but experimenting and trying out old techniques even through X1 is just so enjoyable that I might call it a hobby someday. I also remember renting a Fairchild tube limiter for an album I worked on in 1980. I used it on drum overheads, bass, and guitars and it was awesome - even at the point of "pumping" the sound. Have you checked out MJStokes? Young fantastic guitarist that has mastered John Lennon's guitar style. Check his playing and tone out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkmplQhXIkA&feature=related Thanks again to all. Rimshot
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Sidroe
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/31 15:17:07
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I keep a copy of Lewisohn's book close by. It is an original print hardcover with the paper outer cover. When ever anyone asks me for tips in production I pull that out and tell people to thumb thru it. Even the pictures in it are dripping with info on techniques that are still viable to this day.
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bitflipper
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/31 16:39:34
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Here are some used copies for as little as 5 bucks plus shipping.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jm24
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/31 18:09:58
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I figger y'all already did it, but har i tar: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=beatles+reverb+abby+road&pbx=1&oq=beatles+reverb+abby+road&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2567l10993l0l11577l24l23l0l0l0l0l509l5631l0.5.13.3.0.1l22l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=cf799297008d2d18&biw=1024&bih=617 The first link is to a comment by Owsinski: Regardless of whether the reverb was from one of Abbey Road's fine chambers or one of their plates, the secret is in the high and low-pass filters placed on the reverb send. These were set to roll-off everything below 600Hz and above 10kHz, since physical reverb tends to have trouble with low and very high end frequencies =============== Enya uses some clean verb: Did the google thang and got this semi relavant link: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/insidetrack_0107.htm Middle Eastern vocal section effects: Digidesign Reverb One into Waves Metaflanger "This is a serious reverb, 11.5 seconds long! I called it 'Enya Reverb' [ right], purely as a way of remembering it. To me, long reverb sounds like the Middle Eastern music I hear on TV. I rolled off the low end and boosted the mid-range. Not all the original sound is going into this. I usually put effects on a separate aux and use a send to get the information to it. I'm not a fan of putting effects directly on a track, even though I did it with the delay on Nicole's vocals. The flanger moves the reverb around. It gets a bit of a Doppler effect going, and it moves between left and right. You can see on the flanger [ bottom, right] that the stereo speakers are as far apart as possible, so there's a lot of width." ================== I been playing with combining a bunch of verb-like effects to get sort of a big empty subwaysound for a solo sax: using perfect space with a forest IR, into perfect space with a cooling tower IR. Cooling towers are like way big and stuff. =========== Thus the search for knowledge and distraction continues. J
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jm24
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/31 18:25:21
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Just found this bit:
Abbey Road has a live echo chamber. The Beatles got a lot of their early reverb sounds by sending to the chamber and feeding it back through the console, compressing it and then sending it to a second tape deck for pre=delay.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/31 18:37:30
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Thanks JM24 for the heads up on compressing the Reverb, I have done this in the past. As for rolling off frequency's any good engineer should know that you roll of to around 80hz and roll off to aroud 4Khz to get a room sound from their Reverb units.
Thanks for th heads up on the book to Bitflipper, I do not condone piracy, it will be the end us all, if it already isn't too late.
Peace Ben
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jimkleban
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/31 19:26:50
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Not a Beatle historian but I would guess that Abbey Road used an EMT 140. UAD2 has a perfect emulation of this plate (actually 3 different EMT 140 which they call A, B, and C. Each one a little different with brightness. There is also a high pass filter built in to the plate to give some extra control over the reverb.
EQing pre verb makes 100% sense to me. The early EMT plates were MONO output and the stereo mod came out later in the 60s.
But, who knows, maybe ABBEY ROAD built there own natural reverb room?
Jim
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jonny3d
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/08/31 21:09:13
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According to an great little piece I found from, Audio Class With Professor Hoffman: http://www.stevehoffman.t...rviews/HoffLesson4.htm THE BEATLES "I Saw Her Standing There" (or anything on that first Beatles LP that you might have in stereo). Go listen to that song, cutting off the vocals on the right channel. OK? Now you have heard the Abbey Road "SUPER DUPER" echo treatment: A reverb chamber being fed back through the console and being printed to a second tape machine. That tape is being fed back through the console to the rhythm track of the live recording. With me so far? Now, since this tape recorder is playing back the live echo, the three-inch gap between the record and playback head of this "echo only" tape machine is allowing the ACTUAL PRINTED ECHO on the session master to have a slight delay in it. So, it has that nice Abbey Road reverb PLUS the proper slap echo delay sound thrown in for good measure. Cool, eh?
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qannaq
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 05:35:13
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evansmalley
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 14:47:26
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definitely eq your sends- but also I highly recommend DE-ESSING the send first, pre-verb! Also, if you're doing a solo classical, for example, the woof at A110 is good to compress and/or notch filter out too.
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evansmalley
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 15:02:30
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Also, while on the subject of re-miking a resonant room- you can also re-mike any 'ol resonant thing! I've often used this old trick for snares and toms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC6eFI7JkZY but I've also miked cello bodies and toms... there's more other things I should have done too. But I'm lazy. I will say that it's VERY nice to mike the studio mons, sending a signal to the reverb WHILE you track stuff- (in the control room as you record)- gives a sense of space to a close miked guitar in the control room. I almost always mic my guitar with reverb in the room anymore... my clients really like performing with reverb on their basic tracks without headphones. It's hard to make it too wet for later- somehow. Being creative with ambience is a beautiful thing!
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konradh
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 17:53:52
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Although you asked about reverb, if you like Beatle sounds, check out East West's VI called Fab Four. I use it all the time. It is more Sgt Pepper-Abbey Road oriented, but has some early sounds as well.
post edited by konradh - 2011/09/01 17:55:24
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 20:55:30
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konradh
Although you asked about reverb, if you like Beatle sounds, check out East West's VI called Fab Four. I use it all the time. It is more Sgt Pepper-Abbey Road oriented, but has some early sounds as well.
Ok just had a squiz at that and here is the problem "NOT ENDORSED BY APPLE CORPS OR ANY OF THE BEATLES" the other problem is we are back to the old problem of one button and oh I am The Beatles. No your not, you never will be!!!! This sort of crap just makes me angry, look if we are going to encorage a new golden age where music is elevated back to its rightful place, that is not candy for the tweens, we need to be as bold and experimental as The Beatles. Pressing a button that gives us The Beatles or an effect or whatever and not having perspective is where we are going wrong IMHO Ok here you go, this is how you sucsesfully emulate The Beatles http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks/nowandthen and this is how you unsucsesfully emulate The Beatles, note I have improved since Because and Strawberry Fields http://www.aaudiomystiks.com/mystik_music Sorry to keep putting these up as examples!! Peace Ben
post edited by BenMMusTech - 2011/09/01 21:00:11
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John T
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 21:06:18
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It's kind of odd to bemoan people wanting to emulate the sound of the Beatles, and then put up links to you emulating the sound of the Beatles. If it's good for the goose, then it surely is for the gander, no?
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 21:24:06
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John T
It's kind of odd to bemoan people wanting to emulate the sound of the Beatles, and then put up links to you emulating the sound of the Beatles. If it's good for the goose, then it surely is for the gander, no?
That's not my point and you know I sometimes get tongue tied, even though I am suppose to be able to write. It took 10 years, TEN years of experimentation to get to the point I can go, this is a good example of how to emulate The Beatles "sound" and I am not saying I have, I have come up with a benifed Beatle sound. Also as I pointed out I have two unsuccessful attempts at emulating a "Beatle" sound which I have also posted. I wasn't saying don't try and emulate The Beatles, in fact just the opposite, what I was saying learn what The Beatles used and learn the tricks The Beatles used. Don't rely on a plugin to turn you into something you are not and possibly never will be. So perhaps in summery I was saying DON"T BELIVE THE HYPE, get on your own bike!!!! Peace Ben "I write mathmatical songs" Bob Dylan
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konradh
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 22:43:17
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Ben, I think you went a little nuts there. Hundreds of musicians have created good sounds over the years that are used in different arrangements and settings by others, and usually tweaked until they have a very distinct personality. We all contribute to the body of work from which others draw. I cannot count how many times I have been in a studio as a player and heard "Give us a little Jerry Lee Lewis piano" or "can you get a Cream Sunshine sound" or whatever. The tracks sounded nothing like songs or arrangements by those artists. My favorite sound on the Fab Four collection happens to be an acoustic guitar that I use for country tracks. The Ticket to Ride guitar is the same sound the Byrds used on several tracks, so either they or the Beatles were copycats. Finally, if you ever heard the music I write, you would not think i am copying anyone. This forum is getting too emotional for me.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 22:57:32
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konradh
Ben, I think you went a little nuts there. Hundreds of musicians have created good sounds over the years that are used in different arrangements and settings by others, and usually tweaked until they have a very distinct personality. We all contribute to the body of work from which others draw. I cannot count how many times I have been in a studio as a player and heard "Give us a little Jerry Lee Lewis piano" or "can you get a Cream Sunshine sound" or whatever. The tracks sounded nothing like songs or arrangements by those artists. My favorite sound on the Fab Four collection happens to be an acoustic guitar that I use for country tracks. The Ticket to Ride guitar is the same sound the Byrds used on several tracks, so either they or the Beatles were copycats. Finally, if you ever heard the music I write, you would not think i am copying anyone. This forum is getting too emotional for me.
You have miss read what I have said and your absolutly right, everyone steals from everyone the greats hide it better. I bet I could pick where you have stolen stuff from. The Ticket to Ride guitar sound I am doubtful not saying you are wrong. I am trying to remember my Beatle history. That sound came about when George got his first Rickenbacker (remember the Rickenbacker George was using in 65 was a elec 12 string, not sure about Johns) as a endorsement deal and I think this was the end of 64. I read this in a book a couple of weeks ago. So this makes your statement about the Byrds coming up with that sound doubtful and I have read many times RMcG say he stole that sound from The Beatles. So in conclusion I think the evidence suggests that it was The Beatles who came up with the Ticket To Ride sound because they had the Rickenbacker 12 strings before anyone else but The Beatles stole from everybody else, from Buddy Holly, Bo Diddly, Jerry Lee and a plethhora of others perhaps the most important person they stole from was Beethoven. Lucy In The Sky as an example and of course Because. Oh and don't forget Timothy Leary use to like claiming he came up parts of lyrics of Come Together. So don't get to emotional, get promotional!! Peace Ben
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konradh
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Re:Beatles early 60's reverb?
2011/09/01 23:11:54
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Good dialog, Ben. Thanks. This conversation is coming at a funny time because I am about to release an album that is so different that I can't decide if it will be loved, hated, or ignored. It is not different in a weird, bizarre way at all--just not really like anything else. I'll send you a link in a couple of months or so. By the way, I was at a Beatles concert when I was a little kid. It was an experience that will never be recreated.
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