Before All Else Go Dual Monitors

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Jedi_CGB
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 16:18:40 (permalink)
I use 3 monitors. It rocks.
I have a 32" TV flanked by 23" monitors on either side.
Wave View on Left, Console on Middle & Effects on the right. It REALLY saves time!

C.G. Benjamin

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#31
Loptec
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 16:25:01 (permalink)

The great thing with Sonar is that it's a great software to work with on both a single monitor setup and a dual one.

The multi-dock and screen sets makes it very easy to quickly find the things you want on one monitor. I've used two for years though and I'd never go back to one.

I can't understand how having everything visible at all times would make anyone confused though...

SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM

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#32
John
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 16:39:27 (permalink)
I can't understand how having everything visible at all times would make anyone confused though...


Neither do I.


Best
John
#33
jbow
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 16:51:58 (permalink)
I agree Zenwit. I connected an older Del monitor to my laptop and man... it is a world of difference. I'd love to have two 24" monitors... and I will, hopefully later this year along with a new Studiocat. Then I will surely become rich and famous...
 
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#34
sharke
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 17:21:43 (permalink)
The only annoying thing about having dual monitors is....and this is REALLY exposing my unbridled laziness....is when you fire up your computer with one monitor on because you don't think you'll need the other one, but then you open a folder or program and it doesn't appear. Damn! It's on the other screen. Now I gotta lean forward and turn it on....

I know I know, #firstworldproblems

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#35
paulo
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 17:27:36 (permalink)
sharke


The only annoying thing about having dual monitors is....and this is REALLY exposing my unbridled laziness....is when you fire up your computer with one monitor on because you don't think you'll need the other one, but then you open a folder or program and it doesn't appear. Damn! It's on the other screen. Now I gotta lean forward and turn it on....

I know I know, #firstworldproblems


:)

The most annoying thing for me is that a whole widescreen monitor of x1/x2 console view just sucks, which is why I went back to 8.5PE.
#36
JazzSinger
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 17:32:38 (permalink)
Am I the only one here run a laptop-based mobile studio?
#37
garrigus
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 17:46:44 (permalink)
JazzSinger

Am I the only one here run a laptop-based mobile studio?
No, you're not the only one. I've got both. A regular studio setup and a mobile (laptop) studio setup.


Scott

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#38
Loptec
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 18:11:53 (permalink)
paulo


sharke


The only annoying thing about having dual monitors is....and this is REALLY exposing my unbridled laziness....is when you fire up your computer with one monitor on because you don't think you'll need the other one, but then you open a folder or program and it doesn't appear. Damn! It's on the other screen. Now I gotta lean forward and turn it on....

I know I know, #firstworldproblems


:)

The most annoying thing for me is that a whole widescreen monitor of x1/x2 console view just sucks, which is why I went back to 8.5PE.

what annoys you with the console view in X1&X2 that's better in 8.5PE?

if it's the width of the channels in X1&X2, you know you can select strips -> narrow all strips in console view to fit more channels on the screen, right?

or is it something else that annoys you?


SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM

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#39
Jeff Evans
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 18:24:44 (permalink)
What the subject line should say is Before All Else Set Your Speakers up Properly. Here is a point against the multiple monitor thing.

One should be mindful of the fact that the moment you introduce a second or third monitor speaker placement starts to go out the window to ensure one can see all their monitors. Look at the set-up in post #25 for example. Sure he has got three monitors but his speakers are way up high. Very poor. If you have to stand up to hear your speakers clearly you have failed in my opinion.

We are in the business of producing audio and that involves using our ears. More visual devices do not help, they only get in the way. There has already been a lot said (by experts) about turning off your monitor(s) or covering them up and just listening. It is quite interesting actually. Ever tried it?

A well designed program can easily work only on one monitor. My work flow is a fast as any person here with three monitors probably faster. 

Even one monitor can skew the sound in between your speakers. In mastering situations the monitor placement is often for the benefit of the sound not the visual.

I say get your speakers down into the right position, set them up properly, set them the right distance apart, position yourself the right distance from them and revel in the sound. That will improve your production many many times more than getting another monitor and it does not cost a thing!  The more you listen and use your ears the less interested you actually become in monitors and you find yourself getting rid of them rather than accumulating them. 

PS Remember the old days, there were no monitors and they manage very well. Very well in fact. The guys that need the monitors are the TV editors and maybe the Stock Market dudes!



post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/01/06 19:04:30

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#40
paulo
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 18:25:39 (permalink)
Loptec


paulo


sharke


The only annoying thing about having dual monitors is....and this is REALLY exposing my unbridled laziness....is when you fire up your computer with one monitor on because you don't think you'll need the other one, but then you open a folder or program and it doesn't appear. Damn! It's on the other screen. Now I gotta lean forward and turn it on....

I know I know, #firstworldproblems


:)

The most annoying thing for me is that a whole widescreen monitor of x1/x2 console view just sucks, which is why I went back to 8.5PE.

what annoys you with the console view in X1&X2 that's better in 8.5PE?

if it's the width of the channels in X1&X2, you know you can select strips -> narrow all strips in console view to fit more channels on the screen, right?

or is it something else that annoys you?

The colour of it - all that light grey is just awful and hard to look at for me. In 8.5 you can change it, but in the name of "progress" that feature has been removed and it was enough of a show stopper for me. Shame, 'cos I quite like the track view and it has some nice features, but I tried it for a month and just couldn't live with the console view any longer.

#41
Loptec
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 18:38:56 (permalink)
paulo


Loptec


paulo


sharke


The only annoying thing about having dual monitors is....and this is REALLY exposing my unbridled laziness....is when you fire up your computer with one monitor on because you don't think you'll need the other one, but then you open a folder or program and it doesn't appear. Damn! It's on the other screen. Now I gotta lean forward and turn it on....

I know I know, #firstworldproblems


:)

The most annoying thing for me is that a whole widescreen monitor of x1/x2 console view just sucks, which is why I went back to 8.5PE.

what annoys you with the console view in X1&X2 that's better in 8.5PE?

if it's the width of the channels in X1&X2, you know you can select strips -> narrow all strips in console view to fit more channels on the screen, right?

or is it something else that annoys you?

The colour of it - all that light grey is just awful and hard to look at for me. In 8.5 you can change it, but in the name of "progress" that feature has been removed and it was enough of a show stopper for me. Shame, 'cos I quite like the track view and it has some nice features, but I tried it for a month and just couldn't live with the console view any longer.

haha 
lright.. guess changing the witdh of the channels won't help you with that one.. :P

SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM

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#42
sharke
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 19:38:11 (permalink)
Jeff Evans


What the subject line should say is Before All Else Set Your Speakers up Properly. Here is a point against the multiple monitor thing.

One should be mindful of the fact that the moment you introduce a second or third monitor speaker placement starts to go out the window to ensure one can see all their monitors. Look at the set-up in post #25 for example. Sure he has got three monitors but his speakers are way up high. Very poor. If you have to stand up to hear your speakers clearly you have failed in my opinion.

We are in the business of producing audio and that involves using our ears. More visual devices do not help, they only get in the way. There has already been a lot said (by experts) about turning off your monitor(s) or covering them up and just listening. It is quite interesting actually. Ever tried it?

A well designed program can easily work only on one monitor. My work flow is a fast as any person here with three monitors probably faster. 

Even one monitor can skew the sound in between your speakers. In mastering situations the monitor placement is often for the benefit of the sound not the visual.

I say get your speakers down into the right position, set them up properly, set them the right distance apart, position yourself the right distance from them and revel in the sound. That will improve your production many many times more than getting another monitor and it does not cost a thing!  The more you listen and use your ears the less interested you actually become in monitors and you find yourself getting rid of them rather than accumulating them. 

PS Remember the old days, there were no monitors and they manage very well. Very well in fact. The guys that need the monitors are the TV editors and maybe the Stock Market dudes!

Looking at random photos of professional recording studios online it seems clear that dual monitor setups are pretty much the norm. The speakers should ideally make an equilateral triangle with the listener's head. Most desktop speaker setups I see (even with one monitor) make an obtuse triangle in which the distance between the speakers is larger than the distance between the head and either speaker. 


Besides, there's no reason why a monitor couldn't be removed temporarily for mixing/mastering purposes. For tracking though, I very much doubt whether my workflow could ever be faster with just one monitor. It helps me tremendously to have the clips pane as large as possible so that I have an overview of the song structure, while having things like the PRV on the other screen. And it's not just a matter of speed - having things spaced out and uncluttered makes me think more clearly. It's like some kind of digital Feng Shui. 

James
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#43
JazzSinger
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/06 19:40:42 (permalink)
Loptec


paulo


sharke


The only annoying thing about having dual monitors is....and this is REALLY exposing my unbridled laziness....is when you fire up your computer with one monitor on because you don't think you'll need the other one, but then you open a folder or program and it doesn't appear. Damn! It's on the other screen. Now I gotta lean forward and turn it on....

I know I know, #firstworldproblems


:)

The most annoying thing for me is that a whole widescreen monitor of x1/x2 console view just sucks, which is why I went back to 8.5PE.

what annoys you with the console view in X1&X2 that's better in 8.5PE?

if it's the width of the channels in X1&X2, you know you can select strips -> narrow all strips in console view to fit more channels on the screen, right?

or is it something else that annoys you?
The space it takes compared to 8.5.
You've done a 1:1 comparison, right?
#44
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 03:57:22 (permalink)
I've been running dual monitors since 2007

Recently, I had to "borrow" one because the monitor on my other machine had failed - believe me, being forced to work with just a single monitor was an awful experience!

Getting it back after I fixed the other one was like getting an old friend back

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#45
Fearful Symmetry
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 12:52:51 (permalink)
Yesterday I tried dual monitors for the first time and agree that they are an asset. However, in my case, the second monitor obstructed one or other of my speakers in a way that I could not resolve without major surgery to the room. The room is ACR-corrected and working well and I had no desire to risk moving things around. 

I then tried as per below. I needed to remove the base of the second monitor and "flip" the landscape but it seems to be working well as a setup. The only thing so far is that mouse movement back and forth is somewhat counter-intuitive - but I'm sure that it'll be second nature in a matter of time.




Romani Ite Domum!
#46
John
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 12:59:34 (permalink)
Fearful Symmetry


Yesterday I tried dual monitors for the first time and agree that they are an asset. However, in my case, the second monitor obstructed one or other of my speakers in a way that I could not resolve without major surgery to the room. The room is ACR-corrected and working well and I had no desire to risk moving things around. 

I then tried as per below. I needed to remove the base of the second monitor and "flip" the landscape but it seems to be working well as a setup. The only thing so far is that mouse movement back and forth is somewhat counter-intuitive - but I'm sure that it'll be second nature in a matter of time.




You have a perfect setup for a nice touch monitor. As a matter of fact that is how I envision how to use a touch monitor. 

Best
John
#47
Fearful Symmetry
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 13:34:42 (permalink)
Additional to above: If you decide to do this, then Right Click Desktop/Screen Resolution/Drag second monitor below first/Apply. This will allow your mouse to move up and down freely between screens. Sorry if this is common knowledge.

Romani Ite Domum!
#48
TraceyStudios
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 13:44:01 (permalink)
Stupidist thing I did when I purchased a new computer: got a dual monitor card....should have got the 3 monitor card!!! Remember, more is better right?! :)

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#49
burkek
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 15:45:15 (permalink)
JazzSinger


Am I the only one here run a laptop-based mobile studio?

I also have an Ultrabook-based portable setup (purely for songwriting).
 
KEv

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#50
Jeff Evans
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 15:52:12 (permalink)
My point exactly. What Fearful Symmetry said was so right. He gave the speakers the priority which is the correct thing to do. The way he has got two monitors set-up is probably the only way it could be done. 

I have been into many very pro studios that only used one monitor as well so dual monitoring does not imply a professional set-up at all.

The problem with two monitors in a desktop set-up is exactly as sharke mentioned, it forces the two speakers too far apart. A problem I see with many set-ups that are pictured here on the forum. This is bad and the speakers really need to be totally equilateral in that speaker distance to you should match their distance apart. You are doing yourself such a dis service by having them too far apart. You will be pushing centre panned things up harder than they need be as a result. This is because your centre image is weak. When the speakers are the correct distance apart and you switch to mono you should hear the ghost between the speakers very well right in the centre. If you cannot you are not set up correctly. (This test needs to be done with your eyes closed as well and two friends need to be able to slide your monitors slowly apart. As soon as the main speakers are even moved very slightly the ghost disappears and you are left with a weak centre image. Then you just slide them back until it re appears again)

The software decides how well you can work with a single monitor and some programs are way better in that area. Sorry but true.

The ideal thing is a single monitor (or something like Fearful Symmetry's setup) with the main monitor on a reticulation arm so for critical listening in mixing and mastering you can easily push it way back behind the main speaker line. 

As I said in my first post when you shift your emphasis into the audible and listening you just automatically start shifting the emphasis away from the visual and looking.


post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/01/07 16:35:10

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#51
backwoods
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 15:54:52 (permalink)
Hi Fearful Sym. (from the Blake I presume)


What touchsreen is that and where did you buy it from. I'm a Kiwi too and can't find any of those Planar ones here and can't be bothered forking out GST at customs on import.


I have a rack box with outboard gear on caster wheels and plan to have my touch screen on that so I can push it round the music room to where wherever I need it to go.

 
#52
Fearful Symmetry
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 16:38:29 (permalink)

Hi Jeff. 
Totally with you there. I'm from the room-treatment-is-all school. If you can't hear it it's not there. If the room is crap, you can't hear it. Anything interfering with the sound is going to result in poor mixing choices. The screen is about 6 inches higher than it was before I introduced the second one. I bet when I re-ARC the room, there'll be a difference. 

And good luck for today, you Aussie guys. We are thinking of you over here. Stay cool.
 
Hi Backwoods. Yip Blake ... Like a forest in the night:-)

No. It's just a normal AOC, $179 from Palytech in Mairangi Bay. With my fat fingers I can barely work a GPS. Lord knows what kind of mess I'd make of a detailed touch screen. I've now been working with this setup for 5 hours and I could never go back. It's better than screens side by side IMO as you don't have to reposition yourself or twist you neck as you move from screen to screen. Also, once setup correctly, the mouse movement down and up is somehow more intuitive. 

Nice to know I'm not the only Kiwi not using Protools :-)

Romani Ite Domum!
#53
Kev999
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 19:55:04 (permalink)
...get your speakers down into the right position, set them up properly, set them the right distance apart, position yourself the right distance from them...
...The speakers should ideally make an equilateral triangle with the listener's head. Most desktop speaker setups I see (even with one monitor) make an obtuse triangle in which the distance between the speakers is larger than the distance between the head and either speaker.
If two widescreen monitors together side by side take up too much overall width and interfere with speaker placement, then don't go widescreen.  19 inch 5:4 ratio 1280x1024 resolution screens are still available and still used in business/office environments.  The 5:4 shape suits activities that involve a lot of mouse control and fine detailed editing, whereas widescreen generally suits activities that involve your eyes more than your mouse.  Widescreen is the overwhelmingly popular choice of the average consumer, but is not necessary the best option for DAW work.

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#54
Zenwit
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 20:17:07 (permalink)
Jeff Evans


 There has already been a lot said (by experts) about turning off your monitor(s) or covering them up and just listening. It is quite interesting actually. Ever tried it? 
 

PS Remember the old days, there were no monitors and they manage very well. Very well in fact.
 
>>>>I agree: studies performed using brain scans (PET) have shown that the brain becomes very selectively engrossed with visual images at the expense of auditory acuity. This is why a big bright monitor or projector, with a poor quality audio system, still elicits comments from the unsophisticated of "wow that's the best home theater system I've ever heard!"

Yes, I often place a towel across my monitor(s) to listen. Also, I lay one across the surface of my work desk to kill the reflections there. The improvement is quite nice. A very effective free upgrade.<<<<<<
 
>>>>>True, but then they also had the benefit of not cluttering up their control rooms with PCs and computer based DAWs that required monitors.......  ;-) <<<<<<

post edited by Zenwit - 2013/01/07 20:32:04

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#55
Jeff Evans
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 20:23:04 (permalink)
Good point from Kev999 re normal ratio monitors. I agree this could be a good workaround. Or even One widescreen and one normal ratio might work too. I think that widescreens are good for looking at the main arrange page as you can see a bit more.

Interesting point too that Zenwit has made re the brain being distracted by visual things. How often have you spent ages on doing a tricky edit that you are trying to correct visually but in fact if you play right over it and close your eyes often you wont hear the problem at all. While you are looking though you can swear you are hearing something but that may only be because your eyes are telling you so.

A great example of that is the Mcgurk effect as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/01/07 20:56:57

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Zenwit
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 21:28:06 (permalink)
Jeff Evans


Interesting point too that Zenwit has made re the brain being distracted by visual things. How often have you spent ages on doing a tricky edit that you are trying to correct visually but in fact if you play right over it and close your eyes often you wont hear the problem at all. While you are looking though you can swear you are hearing something but that may only be because your eyes are telling you so.

A great example of that is the Mcgurk effect as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
 
 
Wow.  Great example Jeff.  Now I'm wondering if it is a mistake to attempt to adjust EQ while  listening to tracks and simultaneously watching a visual graphic such as Voxengo Span.


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John
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 21:34:52 (permalink)
All I know is you can take my dual monitors from my cold dead hands!



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Jeff Evans
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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 22:10:56 (permalink)
Well Zenwit that is good question. The last thing I would do is to watch some sort of spectrum analyser while adjusting EQ. What are you wanting to see? Flat response maybe, maybe not. That might not sound the best. NO use your ears and ears only to adjust EQ. I just adjust the EQ until the track or buss sounds the way I want it to sound.

Our ears are pretty amazing measuring tools, but you have to keep using them and practicing to make them so.





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Re:Before All Else Go Dual Monitors 2013/01/07 23:39:42 (permalink)
Jeff Evans

Good point from Kev999 re normal ratio monitors. I agree this could be a good workaround. Or even One widescreen and one normal ratio might work too. I think that widescreens are good for looking at the main arrange page as you can see a bit more.

Yes.  Big and wide is better for viewing while small and squarish is better for intense editing.  It's a compromise.

I used to have a 24" 16:9 alongside a 19" 5:4.  This setup was reasonably ok, but not satisfactory for stretching a window across two screens.  Two identical monitors is preferable.

But even if you obtain another of the same model, it's not guaranteed to be identical.  I have four Dell 1905FPs and the image quality is slightly different on each of them.  No amount of adjustment will produce a consistent colour balance, contrast and brightness.

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