Helpful ReplyBeginner nightmare

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Moradbipbip
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2015/12/19 22:33:13 (permalink)

Beginner nightmare

I am a beginner to digital recording and bought Sonar Pro because a friend had it and liked it. I admit that I should have done my research and bought something else because this is obviously the worst choice for rookies. I opened Garage band and had rhythm tracks in minutes. I have spent over an hour every night for a week on this.... and I still have no idea how to program drums. I conclude the ranting portion of my post by stating that unless I have yet more steps to go through I find it hard to believe that for the money, Addictive Drums only gives me one Kick, one Snare, and one Crash and that's about it. Not a single Tom so don't call this "one kit included".
Ok, I did the Drum mapping, and can open the PRV, and sometimes I can open the Step Sequencer, but don't know what im looking at. I figured out how to open a Beat from AD2 into a Track, I can delete beats but cannot add any, cannot figure out how to do that. 
While im here, once I can program a beat, im going to want to string beats, fills and parts together to form songs and cant wait to loose what's left of my hair figuring that out.
Trying to stay positive but this is the least intuitive, user friendly program ive ever encountered. Thank you to whoever can help.
#1
digimidi
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/19 23:20:37 (permalink)
Well,
 
I have Garage Band on my iPad and it is fun, but it is simply not as sophisticated as Sonar or any other DAW such as Presonus Studio One, Steinberg Cubase, Avid ProTools, Cockos Reaper, Apple Logic, etc.  They all more or less work the same way.  I would say that Sonar is one of the easier DAWs to work with since I have owned or tried most of them.  Perhaps you should use audio (.wav) drum loops until you have a chance to learn how to program midi drums. The thing is, with Sonar (or with any of the other DAWs I mentioned), you are now in the big-time professional realm of music programs.  If you hang in there, watch some of the videos on Cakewalk's website or YouTube, things will possibly begin to settle in and make you more comfortable.  Believe me, if you are wanting to make great music, a program such as Sonar is the only way to go.  This is a common reaction to those who are just starting out at this level of programs.  I want to encourage you to stay the course and it will pay off!
 
Regards 

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#2
Moradbipbip
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/19 23:54:38 (permalink)
Thanks and im starting to get the picture that we all start out as super frustrated as I am now. Believe me, im on Caketv, the Forum, You Tube for at least an hour a day, and I am getting closer but......
Ive played with the loops but the way I write, im going to need to program out my drums very methodically and I accept that its going to be challenging, but im going to keep banging my head against this wall because anything else is just delaying the inevitable. Thanks
#3
mixmkr
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 00:28:30 (permalink)
for what it's worth, when I first started I would have paid ANYTHING to have somebody sit beside me and show me how to do stuff.  I've been digital recording on computers since the early 90's and still learning lots.  There is still a boatload of stuff I don't know on Sonar, but I don't worry, because it isn't stopping me.  Once you at least get recording, commit to learning ONE item a week or so.  After a couple months, you'll see a big change.  Yes, watch the tutorials.  Give yourself a couple weeks to at least get into stuff.  Yes it's complex, but that's what makes some music really great and others sound like it's just loops and MIDI riffs haphazardly pasted together with no imagination.  Not saying it has to be tough to make great music, but there is a lot going on, that gives you extreme flexibility over the basic programs like Garage Band and Audacity....and once you really start to understand things, you'll find ways to be creative you never dreamed of.  The studio can become an instrument as well.
 
So...I just picked up guitar...I'm a noob....dang, I should have just chosen something like bongos.  Much easier.  Get the point?
Hang in there.  It'll happen.  This coming April, you'll be glad you gave it some dedicated time and persistence.

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#4
Grizzlylip
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 00:37:19 (permalink)
Groove3 would be my recommendation.  Its worth the 10 bucks (or maybe its 15, I cant recall for sure) they charge a month for free access to all videos.  There are SONAR specific tutorials for beginners.  Wish I would have had something at least similar when I started, but then again; only the army had internet back then.
 
 
https://www.groove3.com
 
Good luck!

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#5
Paul P
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 00:39:07 (permalink)
 
I've spent the last three years just reading these forums because I didn't really have time (until recently) to really use Sonar.  Sonar is so deep that I've learned something new every single day since I signed up back in August 2012.  I'm more into Sonar as a supersynth/sonic space creator than as a studio recording mechanism, but Sonar is both and in my case both are needed.
 
Sonar is complex enough that you can't really just use it to throw something quickly together.  Once you're used to it things seem simple enough, but there's a lot of head scratching at the beginning.  I came to Sonar from Kinetic I, Cakewalk's very much simplified environment (back in the day), and even that required quite a bit of learning.
 
All that to say that yes, Sonar is daunting for quite a while, but boy is it worth it once you start to feel comfortable with it.  You have to do everything yourself as nothing is given up front, but the result is something that you created, something uniquely yours.
 
I encourage you to not feel discouraged since the reward for taking the time to learn what's going on will bring you to a place where you'll wonder what you hoped to do with Garage Band.  One hour a day is a good place to start, but it has to be for way more than a week.  A year would be a good place to ask yourself where you're at.
 
post edited by Paul P - 2015/12/20 00:54:40

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#6
Moradbipbip
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 00:52:08 (permalink)
Thanks for the encouragement everyone, I will be more patient, I totally get that.Now about that Drum programming.........
Cant record a note without it
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mixmkr
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 01:03:46 (permalink)
There is a built in metronome that you can hear both in playback and/or record...or of course neither.  When you open the console view, you'll see it as one of the busses with a fader for its' volume.  Drums ARE much nicer to record to....but they'll line up perfectly if you're using MIDI patterns for their performances, which is what you'll most likely end up doing if you're using Addictive drums...  Unless of course you're playing live and just triggering the sounds. Meaning you can add them after the fact in many instances.   Getting into the drums right off the bat, might be skipping week 1, 2 and 3.  Record some audio first, even if it's just you singing solo.  That way you'll get a feel for recording.  THEN jump into the MIDI game with your Addictive Drums...  Oh...get ready to open your wallet for Addictive Drum competitors!!  Although AD sounds great as well.
post edited by mixmkr - 2015/12/20 01:18:01

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#8
John
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 01:20:35 (permalink)
Welcome to the forum Moradbipbip. As you can see your fellow members will stand by you as you learn Sonar. All you need to do is ask and a member will help you.  Take your time and study the manual. Learn the language of Sonar. That is its terms, how things are named. This will help in finding answers. It will also help us in answering your questions.
 
What ever you do don't think you are the only one that is having trouble getting things to work. One thing that cost nothing and will expedite your learning are the tutorials in the manual. Do each in turn because they are meant to be done in order. They will introduce you to the concepts of recoding in Sonar. How to edit and how to mix. When you run into a problem or get stuck come here and ask how to do something. 
 
Now you are here and have already started off great. I hope you will soon be a Sonar guru. 
 
 

Best
John
#9
tomixornot
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 01:37:55 (permalink)
Drums programming in Sonar is similar to recording any other soft synth (except there is an additional Step Sequencer tool, which you may or may not want to use after finding out). Cakewalk's Youtube channel has many more older videos that are still relevant that may not be linked at the CakeTV.
 
1. Learn to insert / record midi-track with soft synth - find out about Simple Instrument Track vs Midi Source as you insert it (Sonar manual should have a good explanation on this) The help link below is obtained by pressing HELP at the Insert Soft Synth Options :
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/D...age=3&help=0x2007A
 
2. Using Piano Roll View (PRV) to edit notes. Using Quantize feature to correct timing.
 
3. Step Sequencer
 
From CakeTV (you may also want to learn about Session Drummer 3)
https://youtu.be/9x-7sMawGaQ
 
Once you're familiar with the above, recording AD2 is simply using the correct midi notes that AD2 responded to.
 
The above should get you to kick start in the right direction - study over it and ask more specific question while you're experimenting with it.
 

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#10
robert_e_bone
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 01:41:59 (permalink)
Hang in there - Sonar IS a full-featured product, and there are tons of features.
 
These Cakewalk forums are a GOLD MINE of helpful folks, and even though they are user-forums, many of the Cakewalk staff members DO frequently pop in and help folks out or clarify things for all of us.
 
There are some included tutorials, and the Cake TV and ZILLIONS of other freely available videos, that address just about anything you could wish to do with Sonar, AND there are commercially available videos and really well-written books too.  Almost ALL of these options are way easier to learn from than just trying to absorb the product documentation, though there is a BUNCH of good useful information there too - it's just hard to connect the dots with that by itself, sometimes.
 
One thing that will help you right away, is to understand how to search for explanations and tips in these forums, because the forum search mechanisms themselves are quite primitive and not at all usable.
 
Most of us folks here will use Google to search for Sonar issues and answers, but have learned to make the Google searches more effective.
 
I suggest you add the Google 'site:' search control parameter to your search strings, to tell Google to only look for pages on the Cakewalk site, and further, if desired, to limit the search to only look in these forums.
 
To DO this, here are a couple of examples that may help demonstrate this:
 
Example 1 - for finding specific documentation pages, type the following into your address bar and hit Enter (for Google Search or whatever your default search engine is):
 
site:cakewalk.com documentation sonar step sequencer velocity
 
The above will search the cakewalk.com website for Sonar documentation on working with the velocity settings for the Step Sequencer.  For a more general set of results on using the Step Sequencer, just drop the 'velocity' from the search string.
 
Example 2 - to search these Sonar forums for threads/posts about drum maps, type the following into your address bar of a browser tab:
 
site:forum.cakewalk.com drum map
 
So, with either of the above, just change the parameters at the end as desired, to search for documentation or forum threads/posts for whatever you happen to be struggling with, and that will go a LONG way to quickly getting you answers without having to spend hours looking for needles in haystacks - both search methods will greatly cut down time needed to find many answers for things you are having trouble with.
 
And, post threads if you cannot find the information you need, and you will quickly find that these forums have a BUNCH of really dedicated and helpful folks that will bend over backwards to help you figure stuff out.  The one thing I would add there is that there is a general hope/expectation that you will be actively engaged in the threads you post, and that you also are making an effort to work at getting up to speed on things by reading/watching/trying as well.  But in any case, again, lots of available help in the forums, in addition to the other mentioned options above.  :)
 
Welcome to it - to do basic recording and creation of midi tracks - both for synths and for drums, you CAN get up to speed fairly quickly in Sonar, despite its great depth of features/functions.  'Record' is 'Record' no matter who's recording software you are using, and things like sequencing drums and editing audio and midi tracks are REALLY well covered with lots and lots of examples, so you will get up to speed and productive in a reasonable amount of time - it's really about combining becoming efficient at learning and finding information on how to do things, as well as spending some time just working through the mechanics of DOING things a few times until you get the hang of it.
 
Bob Bone
 

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#11
sausy1981
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 06:42:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cparmerlee 2015/12/20 18:08:20
Don't know whether you've seen my vids on this. I did a couple recently on this subject. Head over to www.YouTube.com/andrewbyrnemixing and check out the 2 videos I did recently on Addictive Drums.
#12
jamesg1213
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 07:01:46 (permalink)
sausy1981
Don't know whether you've seen my vids on this. I did a couple recently on this subject. Head over to www.YouTube.com/andrewbyrnemixing and check out the 2 videos I did recently on Addictive Drums.



I can recommend these vids, they're excellent. I've been using Sonar for years but was having trouble understanding AD2 until I watched these, they opened a few doors for me.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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#13
mudgel
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 07:35:39 (permalink)
Another recommendation for sausy's videos.

You also mentioned Addictive Drums so you are in fact using a program (AD2) within a program (Sonar). We've had a few new users recently grumble about the extreme learning curve and believe me it's likely that many of us have had similar experiences along the way.

You have the power of a complete audio studio at your disposal the complexity of which would dumbfound most people. So don't worry too much and don't forget that we're here to help. There are only unanswered questions so go ahead and ask away. By the way, welcome to the Sonar forums and don't worry about the rant, I'm due for one soon too.
Give us a basic rundown of your equipment - you'll notice that many of us have it in our signature. BTW when using a mobile device you can't see forum signatures so you may already have done that and I can't see it.

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#14
sausy1981
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 08:04:42 (permalink)
Thanks James and Mike, also just so the OP knows that if there is something specific you would like me to do a video on all you have to do is ask. Hope I can help.
#15
Adq
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 09:52:53 (permalink)
Moradbipbip
I am a beginner to digital recording and bought Sonar Pro 

Moradbipbip
Addictive Drums only gives me one Kick, one Snare, and one Crash and that's about it. Not a single Tom so don't call this "one kit included".

You must activate your AD2 serial number given by Cakewalk. With Sonar Professional you can choose 1 ADPak, 1 Midi pack, and 1 Kitpiece. Now you have only demo sounds from Fairfax Vol. 1 ADpak.
 
To program drums use PRV and Smart Tool. To arrange it use Track View and Clips. Use help on this topics if you have trouble with understanding how it works.
#16
cparmerlee
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/20 17:27:57 (permalink)
Moradbipbip
Thanks and im starting to get the picture that we all start out as super frustrated as I am now.

I suppose people who have a lot of experience with other full-featured DAWs don't have as much of conceptual frustration you are feeling.  But they have a different kind of frustration, such as "I know SONAR must be able to do this, but it isn't the same was as product xxxx"
 
That comes with the territory.  The world of full-functioned DAWs is really marvelous, but also extraordinarily complicated on many levels.  If you are serious about this, I would strongly recommend that you continue with Sonar and not go back to Garage Band.
 
While there are several full-functioned DAWs that are more or less equivalent, I think you will find that this forum is entirely different from the others.  Cakewalk has a very long tradition of working closely with customers are trying to make them happy and successful.  This forum is loaded with people who are extremely knowledgeable and eager to help those of us who are lower on the learning curve.  That makes a huge difference.
 
Best of luck to you.  It won't be long before you feel like a power user.

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#17
rwheeler
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/21 10:58:32 (permalink)
I join those advocating for the helpfulness of Groove 3 teaching videos about Sonar. Also, if you browse your computer files in the Sonar directory, you should find a Sonar Reference Guide. The one for Sonar Platinum is 2,188 pages long. Actually not a bad idea to read it, daunting though that might seem. Read six to ten pages every day without fail and you will be done with your first pass reading in less than a year. However, I think most people use it as a true reference guide, looking up topics as needed. At the very least, read the entire table of contents to see what you have available, then dive in as needed.
#18
Paul G
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/21 11:09:57 (permalink)
You may want to get some midi grooves from someone like Groove Monkee.  It's a much easier way to get started programing drums.  Russ is a really nice guy and he even has some free loops to get you started.
 
http://groovemonkee.com/
 
Feed those into a drum synth like Session Drummer and you're off and running.
 
HTH

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#19
Zargg
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/21 13:24:22 (permalink)
rwheeler
Read six to ten pages every day without fail and you will be done with your first pass reading in less than a year. However, I think most people use it as a true reference guide, looking up topics as needed. At the very least, read the entire table of contents to see what you have available, then dive in as needed.




I believe that this is very good advice.
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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#20
SimpleM
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/21 14:04:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2015/12/21 14:55:05
Adq
Moradbipbip
I am a beginner to digital recording and bought Sonar Pro 

Moradbipbip
Addictive Drums only gives me one Kick, one Snare, and one Crash and that's about it. Not a single Tom so don't call this "one kit included".

You must activate your AD2 serial number given by Cakewalk. With Sonar Professional you can choose 1 ADPak, 1 Midi pack, and 1 Kitpiece. Now you have only demo sounds from Fairfax Vol. 1 ADpak.
 
To program drums use PRV and Smart Tool. To arrange it use Track View and Clips. Use help on this topics if you have trouble with understanding how it works.


Absolutely.  First thing you need to do is rectify the missing drum kit.  If you bought professional, you have a full copy of AD2 and you get a Kit, one Midi pack, and one extra kitpiece.  Except for hearing the sounds to ascertain quality, the demo kit is near worthless.

Go to your account page above the forums and you should see a serial number for AD2.  Then go to AD's website, download their installer and put your serial in there.  Then browse the examples on their site, listen to the options and chose a kit, midi pack and kitpiece.  Once you have done this you can start programming AD2.
#21
Jesse G
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/21 20:47:22 (permalink)
I suggest you go to youtube and search on Cakewalk Sonar Session drummer 3 or Addictive Drummer 2 and see how they work in Sonar.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-sF4jXiodI
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsYMmkIfvqE
 
https://www.groove3.com/XLN-Audio-training-video-tutorials/Addictive-Drums-2-Explained
 
 

Peace,
Jesse G. A fisher of men  <><
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#22
Moradbipbip
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/21 23:31:10 (permalink)
Thanks Everyone. I had a nice breakthrough last night and I have lots of material to learn, so ill keep everyone posted. Nice to see so much support
#23
GregGraves
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/23 05:25:16 (permalink)
When it comes to drums, there is absolutely no replacement for a real drummer.  End of story.  Period.  Programming drums with AD2 is very difficult and very time-consuming if you are shooting for pro quality with nuance.  XLN does sell midi tracks, as well as Groove Monkey, etc.  Those are good starts, but still don't get you around the time-consumption and difficulty.   To program drums you have to think like if not be a drummer.  There is no way around that.  For starting out my advice is to go get some drum loops.  I have found the Drums On Demand product to be quite useful for songwriting and arranging.  What you don't want to do is get frustrated, because frustration inhibits creativity.  You want to be able to slap your ideas together and get them down on tracks ... and then .... go figure out all the techno stuff.  Pop a suitable vanilla drum loop on and clone it 80 times the length you need, and get on with making your creation.  My 3 1/2 cents.

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#24
Adq
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/23 05:41:22 (permalink)
GregGraves
When it comes to drums, there is absolutely no replacement for a real drummer.  End of story.  Period.  Programming drums with AD2 is very difficult and very time-consuming if you are shooting for pro quality with nuance.  XLN does sell midi tracks, as well as Groove Monkey, etc.  Those are good starts, but still don't get you around the time-consumption and difficulty.   To program drums you have to think like if not be a drummer.  There is no way around that.  For starting out my advice is to go get some drum loops.  I have found the Drums On Demand product to be quite useful for songwriting and arranging.  What you don't want to do is get frustrated, because frustration inhibits creativity.  You want to be able to slap your ideas together and get them down on tracks ... and then .... go figure out all the techno stuff.  Pop a suitable vanilla drum loop on and clone it 80 times the length you need, and get on with making your creation.  My 3 1/2 cents.

You don't need to replace drummer, you need to do your own electronic drum beat. If you use someone else's loop and just put it in yous track, you do someone else's music, not fully yours.
#25
tlw
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/23 06:42:12 (permalink)
Jamstix is pretty good at coming up with reasonably realistic drum patterns.

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#26
cparmerlee
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/23 06:42:13 (permalink)
GregGraves
When it comes to drums, there is absolutely no replacement for a real drummer.  End of story.  Period.



Same from pianist, trombonist, xylophone player, and every other musician.  But we can't always afford to have a live band come in and record.

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#27
SimpleM
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/23 12:27:11 (permalink)
Adq
 
You don't need to replace drummer, you need to do your own electronic drum beat. If you use someone else's loop and just put it in yous track, you do someone else's music, not fully yours.



This is the 2010s man, "your music" has become relative.  I agree you might not be the musician in this sense, but you are the artist that arranged the pieces and that is still musicianship.

That said, I play 99% of my own drum beats via my E-kit and cut and slice loops from that but rarely do I "play all the way through" a song.  Still my original creation and still my original song.  When I need non-kit percussion and such, (bongos, ethnic percussion etc.) I will often use a pre-made midi file from elsewhere.  It in my mind is no different than hiring a studio musician, just a lot cheaper and has no ego.
#28
bapu
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/23 12:51:30 (permalink)
I'm 100% sure adq NEVER uses a preset on a EQ, Compressor or Reverb else he is not the "entire engineer".
#29
bapu
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Re: Beginner nightmare 2015/12/23 12:57:11 (permalink)
I have a live sound engineer friend who works for a top Grammy winner artist and his brother is a pro drummer.
I played him a recent tack of mine where I selected MIDI grooves (with some minor edits) from my vast drum MIDI libraries and he was dead certain that I used a "real drummer" on the track. He's been a live sound engineer for over 25 years and has worked with multiple "BIG NAME" artists, so he's just not your average friend who is "impressed" that I can create music as a hobby.
#30
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