MadMusicologist
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Beginners quarrels
Hi all.
Seems I'm stuck with absolute beginners problems.
New PC Windows 7, 64 bit. 16 GB RAM, System harddrive is SSD, and there's an additional second harddrive with 1 TB.
Purchased Sonar X 3 Studio, installed it as 64 bit version.
Soundcard: Creative Soundblaster Audigy 5 / Rx. The software for this one comes as 32 bit stuff. Driver: Asio4all.
I opened in S.X3 a file I had made with a previous Sonar version, containing as instrument Cakewalk TTS.
Hit the play control. Nothing happened, only in the time window there was a message saying "waiting for MIDI-sync." ;-(
I'm kinda confused: Do I have to run S.X3 as 32-bit software because the soundcard drivers are only 32 bit?
Sometimes, then trying to change S.x3's settings, I get a BLUE SCREEN. I've been trying out a lot of settings, saw quite some more blue screens, but I can't get the issue solved.
When I open a .mid or .wrk file (I started loving Cakewalk with a Cakewalk 8.0 pure sequencing software that would run even with Windows 98 SE), I can hear the file is being played. Only when it comes to Sonar's internal synths, I can't get the file played.
Sorry, I am a bot annoyed.
Of course I am contacting the CREATIVE people simultaneously, but please, do not just say, "well, may be the sound card is to be blamed, so we do not need to give any advice.
Please help.
Thankx.
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adrian.crossan
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 14:59:57
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John
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 15:13:53
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Don't let Cj know you are using a Sound Blaster. Really, all kidding aside, you do need to get a proper audio interface. And yes the sound card is to blame, 
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MadMusicologist
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 15:17:40
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Thankx, Adrian,
You're sure this one is 64 bit? I got it already, installed it, but....
Well, I'll try out again.
What else can I do to fix the issue, please?
Maybe I should kick "Asio4all" out, it comes only as 32 bit...
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mettelus
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 15:23:53
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Internal soundcards are definitely not optimal; but if not recording audio, you should still be able to use it. I would also suggest trying WDM driver mode in preferences, as sometimes this is better than ASIO. Also realize ASIO4ALL uses WDM drivers, but pretends to be ASIO. I had very bad luck with ASIO4ALL drivers myself as they are scripted to take precedence, and can knock legitimate drivers "out of the loop" so to speak.
For SONAR VSTs... the easiest way to test functionality is to open an old project, insert a synth as a simple instrument track (SIT), and CTRL-SHIFT-Drag (copy, and keep timing in sync) the MIDI data from an old track into the synth track. There are other ways to check this, but the SIT will at least ensure your routing is correct (a SIT takes MIDI input and delivers audio output).
Edit: If trying "not using ASIO4ALL," I recommend uninstalling it completely. Even having it installed has caused grief for some users.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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MadMusicologist
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 15:26:27
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Any sugguestions, John, about the sound card?
First CREATIVE talked me to get a Sound Blaster XFi-Xtreme, then I had to find out that one does not record anything and is useless with a DAW. :-(
Then I got the Audigy Rx, put it into the PCI slot: And I had to rebuild the entire system which was frozen at absolute ZERO. :-(((
So you understand that
1) I am very cautious at putting any other sound card into any PCI slot, and
2) I tend to think that CREATIVE isn't such a good choice. But I like the SoundFont Technology they have, because I've got quite some exotic instrument samples which I love to use from time to time.
B.T.W., as a newbie I might dare to ask: who's "Cj" ?
Thankx.
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mettelus
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 15:37:12
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You posted as I was typing mine... if you WANT to record audio, you definitely want to look into getting a real audio interface. Creative will cause you more grief with audio than you want to deal with. There is a free course on Coursera.org that is incredibly beneficial to new DAW users. It covers a lot of ground, and explains things that people may otherwise learn through trial-and-error (which can be utterly painful). https://www.coursera.org/course/musicproduction is a link to that course if you are interested.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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John
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 15:48:58
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MadMusicologist
Any sugguestions, John, about the sound card?
First CREATIVE talked me to get a Sound Blaster XFi-Xtreme, then I had to find out that one does not record anything and is useless with a DAW. :-(
Then I got the Audigy Rx, put it into the PCI slot: And I had to rebuild the entire system which was frozen at absolute ZERO. :-(((
So you understand that
1) I am very cautious at putting any other sound card into any PCI slot, and
2) I tend to think that CREATIVE isn't such a good choice. But I like the SoundFont Technology they have, because I've got quite some exotic instrument samples which I love to use from time to time.
B.T.W., as a newbie I might dare to ask: who's "Cj" ?
Thankx.
Any card that is pro quality will do the job. Many use a Focusrite and do very well with them. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Scarlett2i2?adpos=1o3&creative=55225946401&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CPObmvXVhMECFQQQ7AodFzcAtg At $149 it shouldn't break the bank. Cj is a member that has very little good to say about CL.
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John
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 15:55:07
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One more thing before I let you go. Welcome to the forum Madmusicologist! I'm sorry I didn't say this before but better late than never.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 16:13:27
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Welcome!
And yes, the source of your problems is likely the fact that you're using Creative Labs cards. They are the top stuff for games and multimedia and people getting into recording often initially assume that they must be what the pros use, while in fact they are terrible for music production. ASIO4ALL likewise is a stop-gap solution that frequently causes more problems than it solves.
To clear up the 32/64 confusion - if you're on 64-bit Windows, all your hardware drivers HAVE to be 64 bit as well. Otherwise they won't even work. So there is no way your soundcard DRIVER is 32 bit. However, any other software (mixing applets or even your DAW) can be both 32 bit or 64 bit. That just means the software in question can see a maximum of 4GB of RAM (32 bit) or more (64 bit).
To further complicate matters, a 32 bit DAW can only read 32 bit plugins (effects and instruments) and a 64 bit DAW can only read 64 bit plugins (except that almost all DAW have a way to "bridge" older 32 bit plugins into their 64 bit architecture). Most people try to go all 64 bit for this reason.
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Sidroe
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 16:42:35
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I think everyone should chant this mantra for our new beginner!
"Get a better audio interface, Get a better audio interface, etc,etc,....."
All kidding aside, either turn off or get rid of the soundblaster and get a more professional grade audio interface and you will be more than half way there with your setup.
And, a great big "Welcome!" from all of us here!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 16:54:08
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MadMusicologist
Any sugguestions, John, about the sound card?
First CREATIVE talked me to get a Sound Blaster XFi-Xtreme, then I had to find out that one does not record anything and is useless with a DAW. :-(
Then I got the Audigy Rx, put it into the PCI slot: And I had to rebuild the entire system which was frozen at absolute ZERO. :-(((
So you understand that
1) I am very cautious at putting any other sound card into any PCI slot, and
2) I tend to think that CREATIVE isn't such a good choice. But I like the SoundFont Technology they have, because I've got quite some exotic instrument samples which I love to use from time to time.
B.T.W., as a newbie I might dare to ask: who's "Cj" ?
Thankx.
You can get a free soundfont VST, I think even cakewalk use to have one but I'm not sure. The last time I used soundfont tech was in 2010 but I have a number of soundfonts floating around because yes there is some great exotic stuff. Just look for the soundfont files inside the soundblaster files and copy them. Then load them into the vst soundfont player and then sequence or play to your hearts content. Ben
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 17:10:44
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John
Don't let Cj know you are using a Sound Blaster. Really, all kidding aside, you do need to get a proper audio interface.
And yes the sound card is to blame,
I remember years ago saying I was using a Creative card and breakout box when I had a problem and was quite unprepared for response from this forum. Fortunately I took it as good advice to lose it and the Soundblaster was soon put out to pasture. You can't beat using a device whose primary function is music making rather than conveying the sounds of someone shooting aliens! Grum.
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MadMusicologist
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 17:26:41
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Ok so far,
Asio4all is out, then I found out that the software for my CL soundcard was 32 bit (when inserting the CDrom the system always suggested to install the 32bit version, although my machine is 64 bit), so I used the recommended download again and: transport works.
But then I am again frozen. The Cakewalk TTS-1 sounds as if all sounds are processed by ringmodulators.
But only the TTS, if I play the same file as .mid with default GM instruments, there is no distortion whatsoever.
So I am wondering now what is happening to the DirectX-machine.
I checked again the soundcard settings, as they have some stuff about EAX effects with the card software. But there, all effects are OFF. (Also in Cakewalk's TTS-1, all effects are off, even no reverb at all.)
Strange, and sounds interesting: but only for a short while. ;-)
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MadMusicologist
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 17:30:48
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Thankx for all the other replies, I shall search inside Sonar X3 if in "Studio" there is that .sf2-player that I once used in a track in Sonar X1
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slartabartfast
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 17:35:26
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The soundfont technology is getting very old in the tooth and there are a lot of software soundfont players available that should work pretty well with a machine as powerful as yours, so that would not be the reason I would choose soundblaster. Not to say that a pro-audio interface is not a good idea in the long run, but it sounds like you are not using the right drivers for a card that might well work for you if properly set up. The Creative Soundblaster Audigy 5 / Rx lists ASIO 2.0 support/drivers in its specifications, so ASIO4All would be a bad idea. Rather than just spending money, it might be educational to get the card you have set up properly and then decide. Blue screens are not just a color, they also give you quite a bit of information about what the problem actually might be. Bad drivers can be a cause of certain errors, but just because you have a problem does not mean it is due to the soundblaster device. http://www.techradar.com/us/news/computing/how-to-diagnose-and-fix-blue-screen-crashes-595800http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-bsod.html
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MadMusicologist
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 17:36:43
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Ok again, which sound card suggestion please? Should I better use an internal one or better external?
The price should not exceed EUR 100,-- since I expect the softsynths included in Sonar (and other DAWs) are doing a good job, and the sound card it self is only interesting concerning the recording, and MIDI syncin.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Here in "good ole Europe" night has come. Have a good day over there.
And thankx.
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Karyn
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/28 18:09:15
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Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/29 07:59:36
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Honestly that price range is very tight for something serious. But you can still end up with better results than the Soundblaster. For now, are you using the Soundblaster with its own ASIO driver? Try increasing the buffer size a little to see if the "ring modulation" goes away. Also, what do you mean with "default GM instruments"? The Microsoft GS Wavetable synth? I seem to recall that shouldn't be available in ASIO mode (which would indicate you're not using that), but I could be wrong.
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MadMusicologist
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/29 08:11:38
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Hi everyone,
thanks, thanks, thanks!
I took the "educational way" and educated my sound card to properly communicate with Sonar X3 Studio. ;-)
The hint about 64-bit drivers for a 64-bit system finally made the way.
After downloading that driver file, I only had to choose the appropriate driver set to have the clear sound I expect.
So far I can mark this post as "closed".
One more little question please:
In a new project in X1, a MIDI-track used to show all the buttons to assign MIDI-in channel, device, MISI-out channel, bank, patch. In X3 I have to do quite some clicks to see those. How can I make it a default behavior that X3 displays those buttons as does X1?
It seems that the terminology is hard to translate. I see the help pages in English, but my installation language is German, so sometimes I keep wondering which expressions correspond - and Google translate is even worse that CL ;-)))
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AT
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/29 10:04:22
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MadM,
yes, you should get a "real" soundcard - probably USB, for doing music. I used an Audigy card here at home years ago, and it worked (even recorded!) but Creative does bloatload your computer w/ all kinds of useless stuff. I don't know if it is still true, but the EMU chip the Audigy used did everything at 48 rate instead of CD audio 44.1 and changed between them on the fly. I can still hear the clicks that produced on some old songs I recorded from vinyl. I suppose you can get it to work, but if you plan on spending time on music, it would be best to replace it.
Lots of people use the low end Focusrite's with few problems. That would be my suggestion, not that I've used it, but just from the forums (and not just Cake's). And if you do get a new soundcard, spend the time to remove all the Creative stuff - programs and any hints of Creative.
Also about the German - is that for SONAR or Creative? Usually when you put in an install disk, that is one of the first questions, what Language? You should be able to put the disk in and start from that pop-up page.
Stick w/ it. There is a lot of learning to learn before you actually start making music. Unfortunately, you are starting at zero, it seems, with the computer. That is rough, but as you get the computer and then programs sorted out, you'll learn more than you need about self-tech support but you can apply that to new systems in the future. Bummer, but it is worth while seeing how computers and their logic occupy about half the modern life.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Karyn
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/29 10:22:28
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Realise that "soundcard" is a generic term. Very few are actual "cards" nowadays, they're external boxes connected by USB or Firewire. @AT  I think he meant he installed in German and all the menus show in German but the help files are English.
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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MadMusicologist
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/29 10:31:22
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The language topic is Cakewalk's. I purchased it as download, and the files are multilanguage.
But my question on track assigning buttons to appear as standard view is still open.
Audigy: I never experienced that issue of changing rates, and it seems I can sort out useless CL software. Keeping in mind the PC crash after inserting the sound card, I'll try to stick to the one I am running now. And I prefer built-in devices, avoiding "cable salad".
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MadMusicologist
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/29 11:03:37
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Sanderxpander
Honestly that price range is very tight for something serious. But you can still end up with better results than the Soundblaster. For now, are you using the Soundblaster with its own ASIO driver? Try increasing the buffer size a little to see if the "ring modulation" goes away. Also, what do you mean with "default GM instruments"? The Microsoft GS Wavetable synth? I seem to recall that shouldn't be available in ASIO mode (which would indicate you're not using that), but I could be wrong.
Hi, currently I am using the Creative ASIO. I just had to find out which one was most appropriate. First, I picked the wrong one: rate 96 KHz at 24 bit. Seems that was too much for Cakewalk's TTS-1, which works well at 48 KHz rate. That should have been the trouble, since after changing to the Creative ASIO driver working at 48, the strange sound had gone and everything was allright. When I was sill looking for the right driver I had tried out a lot, and so I once saw the GM by Microsoft GS Wavetable synth. But that is solved as well. Thanks anyway.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/29 13:03:54
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Glad to hear you have things working right now!
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slartabartfast
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2014/09/29 14:58:44
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OK If you are doing nothing but playing softsynths from sonar, you do not really need a quality sound card at all. The music you are making within Sonar will be very high quality wav files on export regardless of what sound card you use. The music is "manufactured" inside the computer at pristine quality and the sound card is just playing it back so you can hear it. You do not need to worry about the quality of the A-D convertors, the microphone pre-amps or the over-sampling rate etc. You just need low enough latency to play with a controller (if you are using one) without losing the groove, and to manage your mixing, which is not very demanding. A truly awful playback interface (which in spite of the sometimes justified prejudice you will find on this forum) the soundblaster is not, might be a problem but soundblaster will give your ears a good enough idea of what the music sounds like to do a good job.
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alexwoods
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2015/03/24 21:37:19
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Sorry to reopen an old thread, but I'm having the exact same problem. Running (or trying to run) X3 Studio on a Dell desktop, Windows 7 Professional, 16 GB RAM, Creative Sound Blaster Audigy Rx 7.1. I updated the driver as MadMusicologist did, no love. I've been back and forth a bit with Cakewalk tech support, and they are responsive, which is great, but their suggestion (delete AUD and restart) did not work. Switching the driver mode to WDM got the demo track to play, but with no sound. Even that is an improvement over a pop-up beep that sends me to a Cakewalk support page that doesn't have info for the Audigy Rx.
Before I get flamed for having a Sound Blaster, let me note the following:
1. Everything else I have installed on my computer works fine with the Sound Blaster.
2. I have two friends who are happily making music using this exact setup, one with Logic Pro (he's running Mac OS on a PC) and one with Ableton. One of them points out that Four Tet uses a Sound Blaster, for whatever that's worth.
3. I don't have a lot of money, so buying a new sound card is absolutely not an option.
4. I have no interest in or aptitude for computers or tech, I barely knew what a driver was before this nightmare began, and I've spent all told about three hours on this, which I could have spent playing piano.
The irony is that I bought Sonar because I read somewhere that it was the most user-friendly DAW for beginners, that and it comes with great VSTs and supports microtones.
Anyone have any ideas before I give up, uninstall, and mail back the CD? I want this to work and will try anything that doesn't involve spending more money. Thanks.
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alexwoods
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2015/03/26 10:39:11
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Update - I got the Audigy RX to work by switching Driver Mode to MME. No word on latency etc. but at least it's producing sound.
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Karyn
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2015/03/26 14:50:30
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No one will flame you just for using a SoundBlaster Alex, but you have to bare in mind that in the grand scheme of music production they are right at the bottom of the pile.
They are optimised for games and home theatre, and when used for that purpose are very good, but if you ever get problems with Sonar the first question will always be "Have you tried using a real audio interface?"
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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alexwoods
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Re: Beginners quarrels
2015/03/26 16:11:00
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Karyn, understood and thanks. Any hint of what further problems could be in store? Latency, or something else? I wish I had bought a different sound card for sure, and I'll get something more appropriate when circumstances permit. I am however a little bit knocked over by how hard it was to get Sonar to work with what is after all the best selling internal card on Amazon. It's not a rare or obscure piece of equipment and it was just a giant pain in the ass to even get sound out of it. In my darkest hour I was considering returning Sonar and getting Reaper instead, as some Reaper users actually recommend the Sound Blaster. So while the SB may be a total piece of crap, it's a common piece of crap, and these compatibility issues don't reflect well on Sonar.
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