RishiS
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[SOLVED] Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
I just plugged in my new XTouch. Got all the basics working in less than an hour (thanks to a video on youtube that helped). One thing i notice is that the faders , when moved quickly, get stuck at several points before moving.If i move them really slow and steady, they move fine. They move fine when Sonar is closed, so im convinced its not some hardware issue. Just trying to figure out what in Sonar is making it behave that way. Is it just a feature to stop making drastic changes to volume levels or is it some bug with the sonar-xtouch combo. Thank in advance ! Edit : This was a grounding issue in my studio. Took the XTouch to a different building, works perfectly fine with Sonar !
post edited by RishiS - 2016/11/23 12:06:37
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fireberd
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 08:12:19
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I haven't noticed that with my X-Touch. I've had it for a while and my main use is the faders.
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 09:44:50
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I jut googled for the issue and found someone reporting the same issue with studio one. The conclusion was somthing to do with what information the DAW sends to the control surface. Not sure if some Sonar expert can give more insights on this. http://forum.music-group....n-Studio-One-V2-and-V3
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 10:52:28
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RishiS
I just plugged in my new XTouch. Got all the basics working in less than an hour (thanks to a video on youtube that helped). One thing i notice is that the faders , when moved quickly, get stuck at several points before moving.If i move them really slow and steady, they move fine. They move fine when Sonar is closed, so im convinced its not some hardware issue. Just trying to figure out what in Sonar is making it behave that way. Is it just a feature to stop making drastic changes to volume levels or is it some bug with the sonar-xtouch combo.
Thank in advance !
Can you be more precise HOW you move faders? Do you mean you are physically moving them with finger (since you mention "...fine when Sonar is closed...") and feel some "feedback" or you move them in Sonar and observe corresponding movements on the device? The default "refresh rate" is 75ms (~13 times per second), you can try to change it in Sonar Preferences / MIDI / Control surfaces. Also what you mean by "get stuck"? Are you speaking about milliseconds or seconds? Note that mechanical fader as "discrete" devices, if there are "too fast" (I do not have the device) you can observe a bit "jumpy" movements when you move Sonar fader. But it should be with 13Hz, so they should "stuck" for 0.1sec at most (really much less since they still need some time to physically move, f.e. on old Peavey that could take up to ~0.5sec).
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 11:05:22
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azslow3
RishiS
I just plugged in my new XTouch. Got all the basics working in less than an hour (thanks to a video on youtube that helped). One thing i notice is that the faders , when moved quickly, get stuck at several points before moving.If i move them really slow and steady, they move fine. They move fine when Sonar is closed, so im convinced its not some hardware issue. Just trying to figure out what in Sonar is making it behave that way. Is it just a feature to stop making drastic changes to volume levels or is it some bug with the sonar-xtouch combo.
Thank in advance !
Can you be more precise HOW you move faders? Do you mean you are physically moving them with finger (since you mention "...fine when Sonar is closed...") and feel some "feedback" or you move them in Sonar and observe corresponding movements on the device?
The default "refresh rate" is 75ms (~13 times per second), you can try to change it in Sonar Preferences / MIDI / Control surfaces.
Also what you mean by "get stuck"? Are you speaking about milliseconds or seconds? Note that mechanical fader as "discrete" devices, if there are "too fast" (I do not have the device) you can observe a bit "jumpy" movements when you move Sonar fader. But it should be with 13Hz, so they should "stuck" for 0.1sec at most (really much less since they still need some time to physically move, f.e. on old Peavey that could take up to ~0.5sec).
I found this video that shows this issue with automation : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtFwmEwhUHo . The solution does not look so nice though. If you download tht tool, it has a pdf that explains what the issue is. May be experts like you can figure out some fix within Sonar for this. I am also surprised why the issue is happening only with my setup. I have read other xtouch posts on this forum and dont see the issue reported by anyone. I dont specifically tweak any midi settings in sonar. I had been using bcf2000 and novation nocturn,But i have disconnected them now. I tried changing the midi/control surface refresh rate to 50ms ( lowest that sonar allows).But that showed no change. I am not really moving it too fast. Just regular usage.By getting stuck, i mean, it stops moving for a moment and then continues...just like it does when you move the fader that is not assigning to aa track. It goes to a certain point and you feel the resistance to move forward.
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 11:35:38
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Btw...while the video I shared above shows automation..I'm moving the fader on XTouch by hand
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 11:42:36
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RishiS
By getting stuck, i mean, it stops moving for a moment and then continues...just like it does when you move the fader that is not assigning to aa track. It goes to a certain point and you feel the resistance to move forward.
Technically that should be different, at least in my imagination how it should work... I mean when you move any fader it should not resist you till you release your finger (after that it should return to whatever place it should be). While moving inducted by movement in Sonar can be not smooth. But I hope more owners can write something about there experience. Than it should be clear either the problem is in your device or in Sonar plug-in. F.e. possible problem with concrete device can be broken/flickering touch sensitivity. If that is the case, I would expect exactly the observation you describe: periodic "resistance" to fader movements on not assigned strips and extra jampy feedback movements. But lets wait for happy users experience before making any conclusions.
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 11:49:04
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RishiS
Btw...while the video I shared above shows automation..I'm moving the fader on XTouch by hand
So, I want formulate critical question to any other X-Touch owner: If your project has 1 track and you start move let say fader 5, do you feel any "feedback" from the fader? And if yes, when exactly you start to feel it: immediately, in short time, after 1-3 seconds?
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 13:01:54
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I see the automap device in my device list.Im not sure if that is causing any issue.I dont want to remove it coz i have useed autompped plugins in a number of projects.
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Ripwolf
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 13:20:29
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Make sure you are not "pushing" the fader from the top or bottom of the fader but from inside the indent. I find that the touch sensitivity is jittery when "pushing". Same with the Faderport. Hope this helps.
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 13:32:15
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Ripwolf
Make sure you are not "pushing" the fader from the top or bottom of the fader but from inside the indent. I find that the touch sensitivity is jittery when "pushing". Same with the Faderport. Hope this helps.
I tried all possible ways....th jitter does not go...does not follow any pattern either !
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 15:23:51
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While waiting, and in case you know what MIDI-OX is (or have other MIDI sniffer), you can check that you have not problems with touch detection.
Connect to X-Touch output (I mean to see what it is sending). For fader 1:
*Movement is PitchBend 1
*Touch is Note 104
Start Sonar. Touch the fader - you should see Note 104 On. Remove finger - Note 104 Off.
Touch, move the fader, remove the finger. You should get Note 104 On, a set of PitchBend 1 events and then Note 104 Off.
If you do not see Note correctly or you see Note events during the movement - the device is not reacting properly on touch.
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fireberd
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 15:38:16
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As long as I have Automation off, I can freely move the faders on my X-Touch. Whenever I open a (previously opened) project the faders will go to whatever point they were with that project, but I can still freely move them (with automation off).
I used to have a similar issue with a BCF2000 but since replacing it with the X-Touch I haven't noticed that.
I also have a copy of Studio One, 3 and it works the same way in that program (which automatically detected and setup the X-Touch - unlike Sonar that required manual setup).
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Klaus
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 17:19:27
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azslow3
RishiS
Btw...while the video I shared above shows automation..I'm moving the fader on XTouch by hand
So, I want formulate critical question to any other X-Touch owner:
If your project has 1 track and you start move let say fader 5, do you feel any "feedback" from the fader? And if yes, when exactly you start to feel it: immediately, in short time, after 1-3 seconds?
I don't feel any "feedback" from the fader, I only feel (immediately) a certain steady resistance (against the motor/mechanism) when moving it. This resistance feels always the same, it doesn't increase or decrease no matter how slow or fast I move the fader. I use an X-Touch Compact, but I would think the faders are the same.
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 17:29:48
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Klaus
I don't feel any "feedback" from the fader, I only feel (immediately) a certain steady resistance (against the motor/mechanism) when moving it.
This resistance feels always the same, it doesn't increase or decrease no matter how slow or fast I move the fader.
I use an X-Touch Compact, but I would think the faders are the same.
Thank you for checking. Do I understand you correctly that "a certain steady resistance" is the same when you change the volume for existing strip and for not existing strip? So in my example, is there any difference in moving faders 1 and 5?
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Klaus
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 18:07:04
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Yes, the resistance is the same for an existing strip (Track 1/Fader 1) and for a not existing strip (Fader 5).
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riojazz
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/19 18:38:44
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Open this fun little project that exercises the faders with a sine wave, not the straight-line automation curves used. I didn't write this and I don't know who did; it's been around since the Tascam FW-1884. Disregard the error messages and select Skip to allow it to create an audio file; it doesn't matter if there is none. While this gave a nice steady motion on all the faders of the old Tascam, it now plays as a series of short jerky motions on the Behringer. That may be what you are describing and it may be the best it can do. http://mattfinley.com/promos/fadertest.cwp
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/20 01:17:03
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azslow3
While waiting, and in case you know what MIDI-OX is (or have other MIDI sniffer), you can check that you have not problems with touch detection.
Connect to X-Touch output (I mean to see what it is sending). For fader 1:
*Movement is PitchBend 1
*Touch is Note 104
Start Sonar. Touch the fader - you should see Note 104 On. Remove finger - Note 104 Off.
Touch, move the fader, remove the finger. You should get Note 104 On, a set of PitchBend 1 events and then Note 104 Off.
If you do not see Note correctly or you see Note events during the movement - the device is not reacting properly on touch.
I am not able to do this, coz when I open MIDI OX with Sonar running, it reports out of memory and hence cannot map the xtouch ports. I get a similar message from Sonar if I open MIDI OX before starting Sonr. Appears like the midi device is locked by the one that opens first. Not sure why tht is reported as out of memory though.
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/20 01:26:30
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riojazz
Open this fun little project that exercises the faders with a sine wave, not the straight-line automation curves used. I didn't write this and I don't know who did; it's been around since the Tascam FW-1884. Disregard the error messages and select Skip to allow it to create an audio file; it doesn't matter if there is none. While this gave a nice steady motion on all the faders of the old Tascam, it now plays as a series of short jerky motions on the Behringer. That may be what you are describing and it may be the best it can do.
http://mattfinley.com/promos/fadertest.cwp
Tried this...yes this jittery motion is what im referring to.Its annoying when this happens while moving the faders on xtouch by hand.It feels as if the device is forcing me to go slow. Also in automation, this jitter creates a noise.I have a single room for recording and mixing and this noise is going to be a problem while recording. Its much better than the bcf2000 which makes a lot more noise than this though. But I was hoping to get rid of this problem with the Xtouch. On a side note, barring this issue, the Xtouch has been fantastic so far. I am yet to explore the details but switching from bcf2000 this is really intuitive, improves the productivity instantly.
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/20 05:13:24
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@RishiS: Are faders on existing and not existing tracks have the same "resistance" for you? The same as for Klaus? I repeat, when you move faders by fingers and when they are steered by Sonar are two unrelated cases. riojazz
http://mattfinley.com/promos/fadertest.cwp
When I observe faders movements on screen, I also see they are not extremely smooth. Can be that X-Touch is "sufficiently fast" to follow this jumping behavior... Technically that will be hard to improve on the DAW level, that is firmware business. It can be that Tascam has done that right for FW-1884. Interesting what the original MCU Pro does in that case.
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/20 09:04:09
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azslow3
@RishiS: Are faders on existing and not existing tracks have the same "resistance" for you? The same as for Klaus?
I repeat, when you move faders by fingers and when they are steered by Sonar are two unrelated cases.
On the non existing tracks the faders move freely upto a point before it shows resistance and then the device pulls it back to INF. But with existing tracks the fader behavior is unpredictable.It moves smoothly a few db and then a short resistance and then it moves again and so on. If this is how XTouch works for all Sonar users I would probably not dig deeper into this..Else I'm curious to see why it happens on my workstation alone.
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/20 17:28:36
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RishiS
azslow3
@RishiS: Are faders on existing and not existing tracks have the same "resistance" for you? The same as for Klaus?
I repeat, when you move faders by fingers and when they are steered by Sonar are two unrelated cases.
On the non existing tracks the faders move freely upto a point before it shows resistance and then the device pulls it back to INF.
But with existing tracks the fader behavior is unpredictable.It moves smoothly a few db and then a short resistance and then it moves again and so on.
If this is how XTouch works for all Sonar users I would probably not dig deeper into this..Else I'm curious to see why it happens on my workstation alone.
I am almost convinced (as far as I can conclude something remotely) that your concrete device/firmware is defect. The only purpose of "Touch" in "X-Touch" is to PREVENT faders fight with your fingers. It make no big sense otherwise. The "short resistance" you mention when working with existing tracks indicates that "X-Touch" loose touch for a moment (thinking that you have released your finger while you are still touching the fader). You can do the following test. Enable Volume automation writing and record some automation. Check that automation is in "touch" mode (in the Track Inspector) and start overwriting automation, without releasing your finger. If at any moment you see that Sonar "reverts" to the previous automation while you still have not released your finger, your X-Touch is definitively has problem (if not, that does not mean it has no problems... but you will need more complicated test to check).
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Klaus
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/20 17:51:47
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RishiS
On the non existing tracks the faders move freely upto a point before it shows resistance and then the device pulls it back to INF.
But with existing tracks the fader behavior is unpredictable.It moves smoothly a few db and then a short resistance and then it moves again and so on.
If this is how XTouch works for all Sonar users I would probably not dig deeper into this..Else I'm curious to see why it happens on my workstation alone.
I can't help, sorry, but want let you know that this^^^ behaviour is not what my device does, so - at least - there's hope. Hopefully!  And although I use an X-Touch Compact (shouldn't matter with regards to the hardware), the firmware is most probably different and I'm not running the X-Touch Compact in MCU mode (using MIDI mode instead but AFAIK the bigger X-Touch doesn't support that at the moment). But what I also see, is the "jittery motion" shown in the video, when X-Touch responds to automation envelopes from SONAR, and yes, it makes noise! Fortunately (e.g. during miced recordings) it's possible to disable fader movements (e.g. in MCU Settings panel). I hope you'll get your problems sorted! Best, Klaus
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Klaus
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/20 18:08:38
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azslow3
You can do the following test. Enable Volume automation writing and record some automation. Check that automation is in "touch" mode (in the Track Inspector) and start overwriting automation, without releasing your finger. If at any moment you see that Sonar "reverts" to the previous automation while you still have not released your finger, your X-Touch is definitively has problem (if not, that does not mean it has no problems... but you will need more complicated test to check).
Was typing when Alexey posted. A defective device could be the (simple but annoying) reason. Do the test he mentioned and report back.
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/21 13:43:01
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azslow3
You can do the following test. Enable Volume automation writing and record some automation. Check that automation is in "touch" mode (in the Track Inspector) and start overwriting automation, without releasing your finger. If at any moment you see that Sonar "reverts" to the previous automation while you still have not released your finger, your X-Touch is definitively has problem (if not, that does not mean it has no problems... but you will need more complicated test to check).
I did this test and made 2 observations : 1. While drawing automation for the first time, when I get those moments of resistance, I see a straight line in Sonar.It then continues after the moment has passed. 2. When I overwrite the automation (still in touch mode in track inspector), I do see that the automation line jumps to the previous automation line, when I hit those "resistance moments" . So going by your conclusion appears like the device is defective! I tried to use the encoders to volume control by hitting the FLIP button on the XTouch. That works fine fortunately. Pretty smooth. Good for small quick changes , not for drastic automation changes (which ofcourse I never do). However, on the good side, 3rd day with the XTouch, I was mixing a 15 track project today and almost forgot about this issue. I was using the buttons , transport, jog wheel and encoders more than the faders. And the fader behaviour being some times good and some times jerky, it just didnt bother me much for the portions of time that I moved the faders. So yes, looks like im somehow stuck with not so nice faders due to hardware/software or combination of both. But the xtouch is just too good for my usage that I don't want to get into the hassles of exchanging the device ! Thanks azslow and others for your expertise ! Btw, is it possible to control VSTs, from XTouch ? I could control the first pro-channel plugin. How about VSTs?
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/21 14:50:11
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One other thing I'm going to try is use another daw like reaper with XTouch and see if it works fine.
It's hard to believe it's an hardware issue coz the faders move fine when Sonar is closed.I ts only when it communicates with the daw that the issue shows up ..which sounds more like a software or firmware issue.
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/21 17:20:20
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You can control all FXes (but not SoftSynths). There is "Plug-in" mode button (in Sonar layout). Default mapping will be bad. You can define your own using a text editor... Only worse for several plug-ins which you use at most. Check the help file for MackieControl for details, there is also a button combination to reload the file on the fly, which enormously speedup mapping creation.
But I strongly suggest to replace the unit if you can. Problems with the touch sensors are not uncommon. Some people try to "wire themselves" to some metal part on the device or use other voodoo. But the problem can be with bad soldered grounding inside your X-Touch, and that can cause other problems in the future (up to killing the device).
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/22 03:48:36
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azslow3
But I strongly suggest to replace the unit if you can. Problems with the touch sensors are not uncommon. Some people try to "wire themselves" to some metal part on the device or use other voodoo. But the problem can be with bad soldered grounding inside your X-Touch, and that can cause other problems in the future (up to killing the device).
I did some more troubleshooting on this issue. Since you hinted grounding issue, I decided to look on the power supply side of things and the long story made short, when I switch the wall socket, i see the faders get better on some of them and worse on some other sockets. So this is related to power. Now I am going to get my home checked for proper earthing before concluding the xtouch is defective coz I know of some earthing issues from the past. Here is the longer story.... I imported this product to India from Sweetwater. The power goes from the wall socket to a UPS (uninterrupted power supply to handle sudden power cuts) box -> then into a spike buster strip (to handle spikes in voltage) -> from there to a 220v to 110v transformer (since the xtouch box mentioned 125V though the xtouch itself says 100-240v) and then from the transformer to the xtouch. I tried simplifying this by plugging in the transformer to different wall sockets directly and noticed a significant difference in the fader issue. The issue was not gone, but it reduced from 5 to 1 time when moving the fader all the way up and then down. I was able to draw automation sine waves with minor glitches here and there, compared to a number of small straight lines during the initial test. I googled on faders and grounding issues and figured out im not alone. Someone suggested while moving the fader with one hand, put the other hand on the screw under the fader and see the effect. The problem is almost gone when I a put a thumb on the screw under the fader while moving the fader. Clearly confirms grounding issue. I am glad atleast the problem area (power supply) is identified. Will get the earthing checked and do further tests. One other thing I am not sure is if I need the transformer to convert 220 to 110v , since the xtouch power slot reads 100-240v and the documentation says it is a "Planet Earth switching power supply for maximum flexibility (100 - 240 V~) " which technical should mean I can plug the device directly to the 220v wall socket. But the box came with a 125v 10A power cable. To be on the safe side i used the transformer. This may not be the right forum to discuss electrical issues but thought I would mention anyways. Thanks azslow once again ! It is this wonderful forum that keeps me going with Sonar !
post edited by RishiS - 2016/11/22 08:10:29
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azslow3
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/22 13:02:05
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RishiS
I am glad atleast the problem area (power supply) is identified. Will get the earthing checked and do further tests.
One other thing I am not sure is if I need the transformer to convert 220 to 110v , since the xtouch power slot reads 100-240v and the documentation says it is a "Planet Earth switching power supply for maximum flexibility (100 - 240 V~) " which technical should mean I can plug the device directly to the 220v wall socket. But the box came with a 125v 10A power cable. To be on the safe side i used the transformer. This may not be the right forum to discuss electrical issues but thought I would mention anyways.
Thanks azslow once again ! It is this wonderful forum that keeps me going with Sonar !
I am glad I could help identifying the problem, but grounding is at the far border of my knowledges. I have seen several members skilled in the area, you can try to modify the thread title to something like "grounding problem with X-Touch and touch functionality" to "attract" them (and update the first post). "X-Touch" is also connected to your computer with USB, which can create problem when the device has some different "ground". I had an issue with not grounded TC-Helicon connected to my DP with MIDI and audio output, DP was starting "zooming" loud from TC-H as soon as DP was connected to the computer by USB... till I have inserted trafo to the audio circuit. The same with my TD-11, Behringer mixer and computer, especially when both devices was connected to computer with USB (and that could probably damages 2 out of 4 preamps in the mixer, where TD was connected, they are noisy now...). I mean the issue can be serious and in the long term damage your equipment. As an extra test, you can try to use X-Touch with a Notebook on battery, to see if that make things better or worse.
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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RishiS
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Re: Behringer XTouch fader behaviour in Platinum
2016/11/22 13:25:35
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azslow3
As an extra test, you can try to use X-Touch with a Notebook on battery, to see if that make things better or worse.
I did try that today. The problem did not go away but reduced immensely. I have called the electrician tomorrow to check for ground issues. I am also going to take the xtouch to a different building to check how it behaves. Even if it works fine there, I am concerned about making it work in my studio.Let me see how it goes.
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