Best Setup For Working With Video In Sonar??? Need Your Input.

QT is just a container for video. The actual compression can be done from a multitude of codecs. Granted Cakewalk could include more codecs for video in the software but it's easy to find a good MOV to AVI converter for free and just make that a part of your process. As for exporting video, as mentioned above there are so many codecs and resolutions that SONAR would be the last place you should be exporting video from. It is an audio program. The video options are only there for display really. Most people compose against the video and then export Broadcast Wave files to appropriate final editor.

I've posted this a thousand times..  I'm kinda swamped with work until the 1st of the year,  but when I get a free day I'm going to do a screen capture video on my working system with vegas and Sonar.  Simply it goes like this:

1) Open Vegas and 1st frame of pic goes at the :10 mark.  Add streamers to let me know where music starts and stops.  Generate Mpeg1 or AVI File.
2) OPen Sonar import video and score pic/music cue.  Start with inputting the correct SYMPTE TC in  Preferences>Clock
3) Mix stereo wav from Sonar.  Open Vegas and drop in new music.
4) Render Quicktime to send to client for approval.  
5) Upon Approval spit an OMF to send to Mix.  OMF's are time stamped.  Or you could render a Broadcast stereo wav.

You say you want to avoid "workarounds".  This is not a workaround for me.  This insures that I work as quick as i can and not deal with Picture issues.  THere are many reasons that I just don't have time to get into today in a post...I'll explain later in greater detail. Look for a screen capture before the end of the year.   
 

Jimbo 88


I've posted this a thousand times..  I'm kinda swamped with work until the 1st of the year,  but when I get a free day I'm going to do a screen capture video on my working system with vegas and Sonar.  Simply it goes like this:

1) Open Vegas and 1st frame of pic goes at the :10 mark.  Add streamers to let me know where music starts and stops.  Generate Mpeg1 or AVI File.
2) OPen Sonar import video and score pic/music cue.  Start with inputting the correct SYMPTE TC in  Preferences>Clock
3) Mix stereo wav from Sonar.  Open Vegas and drop in new music.
4) Render Quicktime to send to client for approval.  
5) Upon Approval spit an OMF to send to Mix.  OMF's are time stamped.  Or you could render a Broadcast stereo wav.

You say you want to avoid "workarounds".  This is not a workaround for me.  This insures that I work as quick as i can and not deal with Picture issues.  THere are many reasons that I just don't have time to get into today in a post...I'll explain later in greater detail. Look for a screen capture before the end of the year.   
 

Hi Jimbo,
 
Thanks for the input. You say this isn't a workaround for you?? I might be a bit slow, but I don't get it.
 
Here's the PT workflow.
 
1. Open movie in PT.
2. Export movie when finished with sound.
 
Here's your workflow:
 
1. Get new app (Vegas in your case - in my case Premiere)
2. Fiddle in new app to transcode and mark regions
3. Export in NEW format that Sonar likes, because although Quicktime is listed as working, it's a hit and miss option - mostly miss..
4. Do you work in Sonar
5. Open other app and fiddle again to transcode
etc...
 
I think you get the point. I know... this is not a workaround to you... and I guess you can call it 'making Kentucky Fried Chicken'... but it sure seems like a workaround to me.
 
This is pretty much what I do right now, as I noted in my opening post, and then again in my first reply.
 
I'm not sure how getting a new app involved in the process, switching formats and all the work that goes along with that is NOT a workaround in 2012. But to each his own.
 
Maybe I'm the only one on here, but I've experienced problems with both Avi and Mpeg especially when changing starting point, region.
 
Forgive me, but I find it hard to understand this mentality: it's like when your car breaks down and other people suggest bringing in a new car to tow it as a permanent solution... This may be a quick remedy, but I hardly see having the towing car as a long term and non-cumbersome solution.
 
 
 
@SuperG  you said "Right on, Jimbo. This is the same workflow I recommend."
 
Why do you recommend this? Based on what? I'm not sure I understand. Do you find this situation better in the tv and film stuff you score vs the 2 step listed above? Why?
 
Do you often use complicated workflows instead simple ones that accomplish the same thing? Is there a reason for this? Do you get something extra out of going through a third application to achieve the same thing? Have you tried other DAWs before you reached your conclusion that this way is the best way?  
 
As noted in the previous post, please point me to some established film and tv composers working like this? I guess it's possible, if you feel massochistic :)

firefly9000

Jimbo 88


I've posted this a thousand times..  I'm kinda swamped with work until the 1st of the year,  but when I get a free day I'm going to do a screen capture video on my working system with vegas and Sonar.  Simply it goes like this:

1) Open Vegas and 1st frame of pic goes at the :10 mark.  Add streamers to let me know where music starts and stops.  Generate Mpeg1 or AVI File.
2) OPen Sonar import video and score pic/music cue.  Start with inputting the correct SYMPTE TC in  Preferences>Clock
3) Mix stereo wav from Sonar.  Open Vegas and drop in new music.
4) Render Quicktime to send to client for approval.  
5) Upon Approval spit an OMF to send to Mix.  OMF's are time stamped.  Or you could render a Broadcast stereo wav.

You say you want to avoid "workarounds".  This is not a workaround for me.  This insures that I work as quick as i can and not deal with Picture issues.  THere are many reasons that I just don't have time to get into today in a post...I'll explain later in greater detail. Look for a screen capture before the end of the year.   
 

Hi Jimbo,
 
Thanks for the input. You say this isn't a workaround for you?? I might be a bit slow, but I don't get it.
 
Here's the PT workflow.
 
1. Open movie in PT.
2. Export movie when finished with sound.
 
Here's your workflow:
 
1. Get new app (Vegas in your case - in my case Premiere)
2. Fiddle in new app to transcode and mark regions
3. Export in NEW format that Sonar likes, because although Quicktime is listed as working, it's a hit and miss option - mostly miss..
4. Do you work in Sonar
5. Open other app and fiddle again to transcode
etc...
 
I think you get the point. I know... this is not a workaround to you... and I guess you can call it 'making Kentucky Fried Chicken'... but it sure seems like a workaround to me.
 
This is pretty much what I do right now, as I noted in my opening post, and then again in my first reply.
 
I'm not sure how getting a new app involved in the process, switching formats and all the work that goes along with that is NOT a workaround in 2012. But to each his own.
 
Maybe I'm the only one on here, but I've experienced problems with both Avi and Mpeg especially when changing starting point, region.
 
Forgive me, but I find it hard to understand this mentality: it's like when your car breaks down and other people suggest bringing in a new car to tow it as a permanent solution... This may be a quick remedy, but I hardly see having the towing car as a long term and non-cumbersome solution.
 
 
 
@SuperG  you said "Right on, Jimbo. This is the same workflow I recommend."
 
Why do you recommend this? Based on what? I'm not sure I understand. Do you find this situation better in the tv and film stuff you score vs the 2 step listed above? Why?
 
Do you often use complicated workflows instead simple ones that accomplish the same thing? Is there a reason for this? Do you get something extra out of going through a third application to achieve the same thing? Have you tried other DAWs before you reached your conclusion that this way is the best way?  
 
As noted in the previous post, please point me to some established film and tv composers working like this? I guess it's possible, if you feel massochistic :)

Sure firefly...just as soon as you point me to some 'established' composers...

Then again, your post kinda begs the question: If you're a PT fanboi, whatever would you be doing here?

No studio is going to use the video output from PT either. There are too many media forms to release final product in - and PT is not the tool for that. Scoring is done before even final edits are complete. Final releases are done using specialized codecs designed for human-guided optimization on a scene for scene basis. And they cost big!

Not even MediaComposer is used for media releases. 


Even in PT, why ever would you want the performance hit with full up video, unless of course you're using HW acceleration boxes for video and audio. However if you're not using the new HDX boxes, you risk losing your fanboi permit, if not for visting Cakewalk forums alone.




Basically - nobody does full video in a midi-editor, and nobody needs a midi-editor for audio alone.


How 'bout 'dem apples, Cartman?

Sure firefly...just as soon as you point me to some 'established' composers...

Then again, your post kinda begs the question: If you're a PT fanboi, whatever would you be doing here?

No studio is going to use the video output from PT either. There are too many media forms to release final product in - and PT is not the tool for that. Scoring is done before even final edits are complete. Final releases are done using specialized codecs designed for human-guided optimization on a scene for scene basis. And they cost big!

Not even MediaComposer is used for media releases. 


Even in PT, why ever would you want the performance hit with full up video, unless of course you're using HW acceleration boxes for video and audio. However if you're not using the new HDX boxes, you risk losing your fanboi permit, if not for visting Cakewalk forums alone.




Basically - nobody does full video in a midi-editor, and nobody needs a midi-editor for audio alone.


How 'bout 'dem apples, Cartman?

 
??? Whaaat??? :)
 
"How 'bout 'dem apples, Cartman?" - LOL, what apples dude?... I think you're in a different orchard. 
 
You really have not read my posts very well.
 
I'm far from being a PT fanboi - quite the opposite. The only thing I'm a fanboi of is things that work right.
 
Take a chill pill and relax man - life is short :) I NEVER said you need to do full video for use in video editing programs as the main video. That would be ridiculous. 
 
Ehhh - you might have gotten that had you read my post fully... but damm those pesky words and sentences, they're so hard to understand. Would have saved you half your post that makes no sense in relation to what I was saying.

PS: Most composers receive QT files and shuttle them back and forth between them and the director. If you're doing it in PT or Logic you it's a 2 step process with no need to involve other apps. 
 

Hi - I don't have any solutions for you - I just thought I would ask all to take a deep breath and relax, before the thread descends beyond being a posted question and set of replies to the post.

I myself have never relied on Sonar's video functionality, and have only done things with the thought to get the audio together in Sonar and then finish it all off by importing into in a video editing program, which will always have much better features for video than Sonar ever would be designed to do.  I had to deal with tape striping and all of that for so long way back when folks used 4-tracks and 8-tracks that I never really see that as much of hindrance to me, but again folks have their own notions as to what are reasonable things to have to do for work flow, and that's fine - however folks see that for themselves.

Perhaps though the Cakewalk folks would consider one or more feature requests for specific additional video functionality - maybe you can write some stuff up for them and submit the requests.

Bob Bone

firefly9000

Sure firefly...just as soon as you point me to some 'established' composers...

Then again, your post kinda begs the question: If you're a PT fanboi, whatever would you be doing here?

No studio is going to use the video output from PT either. There are too many media forms to release final product in - and PT is not the tool for that. Scoring is done before even final edits are complete. Final releases are done using specialized codecs designed for human-guided optimization on a scene for scene basis. And they cost big!

Not even MediaComposer is used for media releases. 


Even in PT, why ever would you want the performance hit with full up video, unless of course you're using HW acceleration boxes for video and audio. However if you're not using the new HDX boxes, you risk losing your fanboi permit, if not for visting Cakewalk forums alone.




Basically - nobody does full video in a midi-editor, and nobody needs a midi-editor for audio alone.


How 'bout 'dem apples, Cartman?

 
??? Whaaat??? :)
 
"How 'bout 'dem apples, Cartman?" - LOL, what apples dude?... I think you're in a different orchard. 
 
You really have not read my posts very well.
 
I'm far from being a PT fanboi - quite the opposite. The only thing I'm a fanboi of is things that work right.
 
Take a chill pill and relax man - life is short :) I NEVER said you need to do full video for use in video editing programs as the main video. That would be ridiculous. 
 
Ehhh - you might have gotten that had you read my post fully... but damm those pesky words and sentences, they're so hard to understand. Would have saved you half your post that makes no sense in relation to what I was saying.

PS: Most composers receive QT files and shuttle them back and forth between them and the director. If you're doing it in PT or Logic you it's a 2 step process with no need to involve other apps. 
 

It's really quite simple, as your post makes some assumptions about the audience here, and you also assumed that no one here would prefer that Sonar handle video better. What other reason would there be to point out that PT does so-and-so directly, and then begin to quibble with the advice given?


Most folks here are one-man-bands as far as media production goes...this means that they do the transcoding if necessary to make something palatable to Sonar. Conversely, an 'established' composer will likely have some moxy and input as to the media form they require and producers in turn provide it for them thus.


Secondly, syncing a music track to video in a video editor, or another audio editor is, plainly, trivial. 


It is already acknowledged by most here that Sonar could use some improvements in the video department. The workarounds and workflows suggested here are what people do in response, and what is kindly suggested to others in response to queries.

No one suggested that the 'two-step' is the preferred way of doing things, sans Sonar video issues. On the other hand, many of us one-man-bands are quite handy with video editing and other tools, and so the 'two-step' is a non-issue: moot.

So, you see, making and using proxies is a fact of life in all phases of video production, including music scoring - and very few of us are so specialized that we can demand accommodation from the world around us.

Well, maybe I am being a bit grumpy here in this thread...


It's just the OP is clearly either a neophyte asking what is a strangely worded (but legitimate) question, or someone who knows better and is asking a leading question for which they already know no answer exists.

In internet terms, this is called a troll.

If its video I use Vegas and no, no trouble with any editing function in Vegas. 

Sonar is not a video editor and would not be able to do any changes to the video.

The regular codecs in Windows are for the most part very limited. They are really for windows type videos and such so that one can use media player. They are not meant for handling all video formats. Vegas for example uses its own codecs. Sonar relies on what is installed in windows.

To work with video not only should one install the addon codecs but a good simple conversion program is required for anyone to have a well rounded video studio. 

Sonar likes an AVI file best but that is often not the format one is working with.

The other thing I find odd is that why the need for you to "edit the video". That should be done by the people that produced it. They should be able to incorporate your audio into their video.  They should sync it and place it where it belongs. This shouldn't be your job.

If you are doing your own video and audio than you have complete control. However you do need the right tools to get the job done. 

As outlined above the programs mentioned above will get the job done. 

There is no point in getting into a fight over inconsequential things on either side.

State facts and the rest will take care of itself.  

I'm guessing they probably just don't have anyone at CW who's really adept at working on the video side of things (probably similar to the staff view situation). It really hasn't been touched in years. I think Bob Damiano was the person who handled it in the early days, and he's been gone for a while now. And it never really went beyond handling video with the stock Windows multimedia functions, so it's pretty limited. You would think it would have gotten more attention as online video became more popular, but I guess that's just the way things are.

@StepD - Sad to hear. Hopefully they'll release something better in X3. Nothing beats the workflow of Sonar but when you bring in video it's a different story.

@dubdisciple - Unfortunately my work consists of a lot of quicktimes that require really fast turnaround.... so if I can shave any time off my current workflow I love it. I also have the whole Adobe suite.

When working in Sonar I don't really need super video resolution... so it's not about that. I just need to get things done fast. I lost a potential credit card commercial job because of that - so yeah I'm a bit miffed about the whole video thing :)

I would even spring for a hardware option if I could find one that's not expensive and can play all the QT files. So far no such luck.

I can't even express my disdain for Quicktime, but like it or not everything comes to me as such and they want it back exactly the same format - not only QT, but the SPECIFIC QT file they gave me. I sent it back one time in QT but with a different codec or something and the sup said he could not play it...
 
Quick question: Can Vegas put back the sound Quicktime Pro style - where it just replaces the old sound WITHOUT having to bounce or export the clip again? Premiere (in my limited knowledge) has to export it back - you can't just swap audio without decompressing and recompressing the file.

 
Once again, you have not read my OP. I didn't "quibble" with the advice given, I just clearly pointed out that this is my PRESENT workflow.
 
You could have just stated that "Dude, that's just the way it is - you have to deal with it".   

Well, let's see.... it was you in post #6 that called the suggested workflow as complicated. I'd rate that as a quibble, and maybe a bit more.

Secondly, I would never say "Dude...that's..." - that's just plain off putting. You were given straight-up no-nonsense workflow advice right upfront in response to your query.  Predictably, that's exactly where you've come back full circle to now.

If you just wanted to beef about Sonar's issues, that's fine, - but that wasn't your question as posted.

You wanna know which other product can add audio to a video stream without a transcode? This isn't the place for that - try the DVForum or a manufacturers support forum.

But you knew all this from the get-go?

Of course, if you want to bellow about how much a client is a heel, or that they're too obtuse to add a wave file to their own video, that's fine too - but that's another topic.

If you want to beef about how adding audio to video in another products sucks, it costs more money, eats time, etc, that's fine - but that's not the question that was posted, and it'd be gratuitous as well.

Good luck.

SuperG
You wanna know which other product can add audio to a video stream without a transcode? This isn't the place for that - try the DVForum or a manufacturers support forum.

But you knew all this from the get-

Whaaaaaat??? :)
 
It's like you're responding to a different thread entirely. Yep, why should I post "looking for Sonar video integrating solution" on a Sonar forum... I should go to the manufacturer's support forum - what do you suggest: Sony - Adobe?? Where should I put my Sonar Video Question - Perhaps Panasonic can help me.
 
I explain it as clear as I can, but you appear to have an paranoic complex that makes everything I say seem, in your imagination, as having some dark hidden motive against you.  (try reading Don Quixote)
 
You make all these accusations based on your interpretation of my posts. Do me a favor and DON'T speak for me. If I have a problem I will say it flat out as I'm doing with you my fine chap. Speak for yourself ONLY as I didn't try to speak for you.
 
If I'm looking for an interpreter of my posts, you'll be the first to know.... promise :)
 
It should give you pause for thought that everybody else on this thread was able to have a civil dialogue, although they may not have agreed with me, EXCEPT for you...
 
Good luck in future endeavors - You're going to have tons of fun working in a team where back and forth problemsolving is required.
 
I'm sure your teammates will love the "Why do you bring up that problem - are you trying to start trouble?" line of thought.
 

firefly9000

Jimbo 88


Quicktime Files seem to be all over the place.  Avid QT files seem different than other QT files and I just can't keep track of what is what..nor do I care to.

Agreed - but I really can't tell the people that I work with to 'go suck it' when they send me QT :) (although I wish I could)
 
The other problem for me was noted above in the response to Dubdisciple. I need to send the same format back in QT. So not only do I have to transcode, but I have to sync back to the original vid. I'll give Vegas a try. Premiere pro is a pain doing this because it decompresses and recompresses things... and I was under the impression that Premiere was more advanced than Vegas. But you might be right. If I can just swap audio in Vegas without it recompressing back then that would still be an advantage.

 
Yep,  never tell your client "go suck it".  I tell them "send me the file anyway you want".  Then I let Vegas handle any issues.
  
Do you really need to match Your clients codecs to send back?  That would be a PITA and not sure I could do it.
 
 Premiere, i believe, is more advanced than Vegas.  But Vegas comes in various cheaper, lite versions and looks/acts like most DAWs.
 
When i export a wav out of Sonar it is the same length as my Picture file.  So no syncing is necessary.  That process can be painfull also.