Helpful ReplyBest instrument/way to program drums from samples?

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ZeroContrast
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2014/05/10 04:34:13 (permalink)

Best instrument/way to program drums from samples?

I mostly produce rap music, although I also dabble a little bit in various electronic genres. I've been doing my music production in FL Studio, then saving WAV's and bringing them into Sonar X2 to record to. I'd like to be able to do my production in Sonar as well though, it would be simpler having one program, plus I definitely prefer some of Sonar's features to FL. Question is, my drums are mainly from a collection of drum samples, can anyone recommend the best (as in simplest and most optimal playback) way to do this? Whether Sonar has a sampler VST or some other option. I'd also like to have the option to still EQ each drum separately if possible. And I considered ReWiring FL to Sonar, but that's a bit cumbersome and resource heavy.
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Boydie
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 11:38:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/10 11:54:01
You most straight forward option is to use Session Drummer
 
Simply load your audio files onto the relevant kit pieces and you can play them like drums (and obviously programme them in the PRV etc.)
 
You can then set Session Drummer to output each drum to a separate track so you can mix and process them individually in Sonar (there are plenty of tutorials on how to do this - try CAKE TV on YouTube)
 
A more "complex" 3rd Party option would be to use a VST like NI BATTERY, which has more control of the sample but I think you will be fine with Session Drummer
 
Good luck and let us know how you get on
 
 
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ZeroContrast
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 12:00:19 (permalink)
Hey thanks for that, I saw Session Drummer mentioned when I did a quick search before posting, but still couldn't quite tell if it's what I needed, sounds like it oughtta do the job. I'll have to rerun my install to put the instruments in, but I think that'll be worth it. I'll post back on how it goes.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 12:10:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/15 19:59:41
I dabble in hip-hop and edm. There is no apples to apples equivalent to the fl studio drums workflow so it will take some adjusting. The key to making that adjustment is to mentally breakdown the semantic construction of how fl studio works. The simplified version is fl studio's default channel is a single sample sampler set to be triggered via stepsequencer with a default note of C1 ( dont have fl in front of me so default maybe c3 but idea is the same). Options exist to change pitch and even switch to piano roll. Creating a similar setup in Sonar is not as efficient but may offer more overall options in the big picture. Too literally try to emulate flb studio workflow one could simply create an instance of dropzone for every drum sample and use step sequencer for each channel. I honestly would not go that route but it is a possibility.

Two solutions I have actually used are third party drum software and Session drummer. I use Geist because it combines step sequencer, sampler and slicer but there are other options. Session drummer takes a little more prep but can be very effective. For starters it contains quality 808 samples which are still the most commonly used in hip-hop. The awkwardness begins when you wish to use your own samples. Even then it isn only awkward if you need to use multisamples. Otherwise simply replace kit samples with your own. I suggest setting up a template with your most commonly used sounds loaded into SD3.
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sharke
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 12:37:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/15 19:59:46
Geist is well worth buying, snap it up if you see it in a sale. It's perfect for creating drum kits from samples. There are 8 "engines" each of which can host a kit consisting of 16 pads, and each of those pads can host multiple layers of samples. It has excellent onboard effects (filters, EQ's, delays, modulators etc) which you can apply to individual layers, pads or the whole engine itself. You can also do all of your pattern sequencing in there, and each track of each pattern can be automated any way you like. You can also arrange your whole song in there, as long as it doesn't contain any time sig changes. Otherwise you can just trigger the patterns via MIDI (or trigger individual pads if you want to do all the sequencing in Sonar).

Battery 4 is also excellent - it's more powerful in terms of creating drum kits from scratch, and the per-drum effects are top notch. It's only drawback is that it has no pattern sequencer. I'm glad I have both Battery and Geist and I use them both, but if I had to choose between one and the other I would probably choose Geist.

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stickman393
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 13:13:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/15 19:59:53
SFZ Player (included in SONAR) is pretty good. I define my own SFZ layouts in text files.
Documentation here: Sound On Sound article
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dubdisciple
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 14:22:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/15 19:59:57
Another lowcost option is poise( about 50 bucks). Even though sfz and other sfz based solutions can work, but are very unintuitive. One can setup templates but that only helps for a base. In hip-hop production it is common to swap samples on the fly or try different combos of stacked samples. Making those changes in sfz based programs is time consuming and a total workflow killer
post edited by dubdisciple - 2014/05/10 16:10:40
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brundlefly
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 15:28:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/15 20:00:04
sharke
Geist is well worth buying, snap it up if you see it in a sale. It's perfect for creating drum kits from samples. There are 8 "engines" each of which can host a kit consisting of 16 pads, and each of those pads can host multiple layers of samples.



For the OP's benefit, the lack of drag 'n' drop velocity layering is the main shortcoming of Session Drummer by comparison. You can only drop one sample on each pad, and Session Drummer just scales the amplitude with velocity. In order to implement velocity-switched layers, you have to build a custom SFZ file for the kit. If Geist let's you drag 'n' drop, multi-samples that would be great. Sounds like a cool plugin in any case.

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sharke
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 15:53:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/15 20:00:09
Yeah you can drag and drop onto pads from Geist's onboard browser. If you hold down alt when dropping, it adds it to the layers.

James
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dubdisciple
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/10 16:13:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/15 20:00:12
With geists layers you have the options of having up to 8 layers play round robin, stacked, or based on velocity. Geist does have its cons but it's as close to MPC style production as you will get via software.
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ZeroContrast
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/15 20:02:52 (permalink)
Hey, guys, thanks for all the replies, been busy with studies so I hadn't had a chance to read and reply. Definitely appreciate all the info. Geist does sound like it could be the best option, especially if it's got the ability to do patterns, which makes sequencing so much easier. I'll have a look around for it, maybe see if there's a demo to check out before buying. And I may have a play with Session Drummer if it's a little while before I get Geist. And I may at least read up on Battery 4 and Poise. Thanks again.
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tlw
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/15 21:49:46 (permalink)
Another option would be to use Dimension Pro as a sample player - it also has filters, envelopes etc.
 
Whatever you decide to use to play samples, don't overook the Percussion Strip, it's a great drum kit processor.

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musichoo
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/15 23:59:06 (permalink)
+1 for geist.

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dubdisciple
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/16 12:04:08 (permalink)
Dim pro is not a bad option if you only need a simple stereo drumkit but a horrible drum option if you need a full kit with seperate channels for each sound.
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mettelus
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/16 17:02:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/17 05:19:40
Quick aside for Geist... it seems to go on sale (from $249 to $99) around every three months and should be coming up again soon. As dub mentioned, Geist does have its cons, but is a very powerful plug-in which is well-suited for sampling/layering/sequencing. It also has a nifty tool called "spitter" (utility plug-in that comes with Geist) that will route/sample inputs off any track, so the ability to sample/slice with Geist is infinite.
 
It is definitely worth a gander at the free trial, but to maximize usage of that trial, I would recommend downloading and reading the user guide first (it is a fairly complex plug-in in some regards).

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dubdisciple
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/16 22:53:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2014/05/17 05:26:42
The effects are good too. Breverb is built in. In fact the onboard effects are good enough that I can do my whole drum mix in geist and just use a stereo instance In Sonar instead of multiple tracks.
post edited by dubdisciple - 2014/05/17 03:09:28
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sharke
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/17 01:31:09 (permalink)
I've been having an absolute ball tonight with the sample slicer in Geist. It's so easy to split a drum loop and play with it. In fact the default automatic slicing settings are so good you can have endless fun going through a folder full of loops and seeing what comes out. Back in the early 90's I used to dabble with drum & bass styles by splitting drum loops on my Amiga and putting them back together in different orders in OctaMED. I'd split loops into 8 parts by literally typing in the start and end numbers, in bytes, of the segments I wished to slice. It took so freakin' long. I like to think back to those days when I'm doing the same with one click in Geist. 
 
The effects are really cool as well, as dubdisciple says. It has some really gritty distortions which, placed on the whole kit, make any drums sound instantly awesome, especially if you're into electronic styles. It's also great fun to put one of the low pass filters on a bus and tweak the cutoff. I really love Geist, you can have so much fun just playing with it before you even start a project. 
 
Another bonus is that the manual is superb, in fact one of the best I've read. There is a LOT to learn with Geist if you want to use its full potential, but luckily the manual is extremely clear, accurate and very well organized. It's a joy to read, especially if you've just been trying to read something like the Kontakt manual 

James
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ZeroContrast
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/17 05:29:07 (permalink)
mettelus
Quick aside for Geist... it seems to go on sale (from $249 to $99)

Dude, that's awesome, is this on the company's own website?
 
sharke
It's also great fun to put one of the low pass filters on a bus and tweak the cutoff.

When you tweak the cutoff like that, can you do it as an envelope? (FL Studio is a bit of a bastard when it comes to automation IMO). Would love cutoff and/or resonance filters in a simple envelope again (was just starting to really utilize 'em back when I was still working with Acid Pro).


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ZeroContrast
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/17 05:30:15 (permalink)
dubdisciple
The effects are good too. Breverb is built in. In fact the onboard effects are good enough that I can do my whole drum mix in geist and just use a stereo instance In Sonar instead of multiple tracks.


This is boss btw, just the kind of thing I was hoping for.
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sharke
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Re: Best instrument/way to program drums from samples? 2014/05/17 12:47:39 (permalink)
ZeroContrast
mettelus
Quick aside for Geist... it seems to go on sale (from $249 to $99)

Dude, that's awesome, is this on the company's own website?
 
sharke
It's also great fun to put one of the low pass filters on a bus and tweak the cutoff.

When you tweak the cutoff like that, can you do it as an envelope? (FL Studio is a bit of a bastard when it comes to automation IMO). Would love cutoff and/or resonance filters in a simple envelope again (was just starting to really utilize 'em back when I was still working with Acid Pro).





Almost everything in Geist is fully automatable and MIDI learnable, so you can record your cutoff performance like you would a parameter on any other synth. If you want to draw envelopes, you can either do this as usual in Sonar, or you can draw envelopes on a per-pattern per-track basis within Geist. If you do the latter, you'll be drawing in the envelope in the step sequencer, like this example:
 


James
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