Best studio monitors for film scoring / orchestra?

Any recommendations for film scoring / orchestral stuff? I have the M-Audio BX8a which are ok but I tend to get ear fatigue after a couple hours. Would like to have a secondary monitoring system to alleviate that problem. I heard some good things about Blue Sky.
Thanks!

How much is your budget? Apart from knowing your budget it is very difficult to make suggestions.

A few comments:

Minimal budget +/- $600, if you have a good amp, consider getting a used pair of B&W 685's, or the like. Many orchestral albums have been mixed on high end B&W's. IMO a good set of "low end" B&W's outperforms most of the budget "studio monitors". To my ears, they had much greater clarity, and a much fuller sound stage.

About $1,000: Adam A7's (consensus overall is that it takes about $1K to get into the "good stuff". Consider Dynaudio, or Genelec as well. Note: I have no personal experience with any of these.

$1,500+: PMC (though $1,500 is really the entry point). No personal experience here either, but these have a strong "drool factor".

For orchestral writing, the value of having a single sub-woofer is debated. Personally, given the traditional orchestral layout, having a pair of full range speakers would be the better choice, as normally the percussion is placed in the back/left (harp and piano on the far left side), while the double bass section is normally on the back/right. For serious orchestral work, having full range speakers is almost a necessity - you need to get down to 35 Hz or so to get the low open E string of the double basses (to say nothing of a 5 string bass that goes down another fourth to the low B).

Ethan Winer has gone on record recently saying that he does not mind large speakers in a small room (the room can be treated). When using small speakers for orchestral work, too much low frequency information is lost before one even gets started.

Note that the B&W speakers mentioned above go down to the low 40's. At least some lower information is preserved. What would best be avoided is a pair of speakers that roll off around 55-60 Hz.

B&W = Bowers and Wilkins
PMC = Professional Monitor Corporation

<edited 2x to make corrections>

I second noldar12's recommendations.

Excellent choices and very good reasons for choosing them.

The monitor that's good for mixing songs, should be good for mixing film music. Monitors are like Cilantro, I might love it, but you might think it's crap. Go to Guitar Center, Sam Ash, and listen to as many monitors as you can. Find the best for you. If the store has a good return policy, you should know in a month or so, if you can live with them.

It is important to remember that writing for orchestra is a different world than writing pop songs. What is often desired in pop writing - pumping bass, loud and louder for example, is generally not wanted in orchestral writing where greater variety is desired. Rather, subtle changes in orchestration and a dynamic range from at least "ff" to "pp" become very important.

If you are serious about heading in that direction, getting a good book on orchestration is essential, in order to get a grasp on what each orchestral instrument does well, along with its limitations. The book by Adler would be one good option. Two examples: writing a "middle C" for flute, and demanding a dynamic of "fff" - a flute simply can't do that as the note will be overblown, just as an oboe can't play that same "middle C" "ppp" - the lowest notes on an oboe tend to be louder and "honk", while its middle register is quite lyrical (note: there are situations where the "honk" can be useful).

Anyway, just some more things to consider.

The monitors that are often recommended for pop music often do not make the best choice for orchestral, hence the above suggestions. One forum that is well worth checking out, is the gear slutz forum. A number of major recording engineers often post there (including Ethan Winer). For me, that site has proved most valuable.

<corrected to fix a poor wording choice>

It sounds like room treatment might be a better option, or a combination of both.

See I told ya..........
We all know glasses is spelled.........nevermind.

I know everyone is going to laugh at this one, but I built my 1st studio on a shoe string budget and used Radio Shack Minima 7's. I loved them for one reason....NO EAR FATIGUE. I have a couple of different sets of monitors now, but when I am composing for long hours I still use them. 5 or 6 years ago one of them blew a speaker (after 20 years of HEAVY use) and I had to relpace the set and they now have the RCA label on them.

The Yamaha NS10s are the standard, but I have had more than one Professional mixer say that I am not crazy and that there are others who use the Radio Shack speakers also. They are very inexpensive and have decent clarity and frequency response at low levels.

I believe ear fatigue is caused by bass frequencies bouncing around so maybe you can treat your room for that. As a matter of necessity, my basement studio had to have the corners on one side rounded. I noticed that it cut down on room noise and ear fatigue so much I did the same to the other 2 corners. So try treating the corners of your studio also.

Any recommendations for room treatment? Just basic stuff would be very helpful - its just a small 15X30 foot room with curtains and car alarms going off constantly in the alley - hehe

What CJay said.

See, I mentioned to you that people would disagree with my JBL remarks. :-)

But here's the deal. I'm taking you at face value... you're composing for film. The mention of THX certification is a great idea but before you go about looking at everything with a THX certification do your self a favor and Google JBL 4412.

Those speakers were the defacto standard for film sound mixing for a long long time. The reason is that they are popularly believed to best match the sound of a real theater presentation. Now that THX certification is pertinent the new JBL LSR series (that's what I use) is very popular with film oriented mixers because they feel that's the logical evolutionary step from the old 4410s and 4412s (which I believe are still available as well).

Many small town theaters have marginal sound, but the few really top notch theaters in the country are considered the only ideal place to listen to a movie. Very few people prioritize the DVD mix until it's time to cash out the film on DVD distro. No one (well of course I can't say that's a fact... but I'm going to say it anyways) thinks ANYONE with a home theater has the system set properly. (Ok Bill Gates and Steve Jobs do... but no one else) Most of the focus remains on achieving near perfection at the theater and that's why speakers that sound similar to the theater are thought to be good choice.

Many producers, even those who not know sound technology, know that JBL is a *standard*.

I can tell you this, when people from L.A. fly across the country to work in my colleagues local THX certified studio for film sound mixing they appreciate seeing the LSR's they are familiar with... they wouldn't care if you also have some huge soffit mounts or the latest high end Euro bookshelf system to drool over. They enjoy the familiarity of the JBL's... warts and all. (JBLs don't have the smoothest tweeter sound... especially when compared to audiophile styled monitors... but no full size theater speaker system has a smooth tweeter either.)

If you're working with Film people this might be something to consider... and despite the fact that you have many great choices as exhibited by the above suggestions you can not go wrong with something from the JBL professional line. There is a very good reason they are considered a *standard*.

And again, I predict that many people will disagree.

all the best,
mike


edit to change:

"See, I mentioned you people would disagree with my JBL remarks."

to

"See, I mentioned to you that people would disagree with my JBL remarks."

because the "you" was a compositional typo that completely changes the "attitude" of that sentence. I welcome disagreement and really regret having appeared to be pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

looking at these interview videos, you can see what these guys are using:

Teddy Shapiro - JBL's
http://www.soundtrack.net/news/article/?id=1056

Charlie Clouser - Dynaudio
http://www.soundtrack.net/news/article/?id=1068

Mark Isham - M-Audio (yes, M-Audio BX8A)
http://www.soundtrack.net/news/article/?id=1096

David Newman - Adam
http://www.soundtrack.net/news/article/?id=1008

... and more here...
http://www.myspace.com/lakeshorescores

PS: and to back up mike here, every sound/video post room in LA I walk into is using JBL LSR 4328's in the suite...