rogeriodec
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Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
I'm starting in the mixing process of soundtracks with narration. By default the soundtrack should always be at the front. But when the narration appears, I would like to avoid that rudimentary technique to lower the volume of the soundtrack in order to the voice stand out. I would like to know the best technique to mix narration, without having to always stay lowering the volume of the soundtrack every time I have a clip of narration, and then return to the standard soundtrack volume when there is no narration?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 15:09:01
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I can think of one option, reduce the level of the soundtrack so that it doesn't need lowering during periods of narration. What you want is somewhat at odds with By default the soundtrack should always be at the front You can easily set up an automated ducker and have complete control over how much the level of the soundtrack is attenuated, which I think is your best option
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rogeriodec
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 15:21:38
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Bristol_Jonesey You can easily set up an automated ducker and have complete control over how much the level of the soundtrack is attenuated, which I think is your best option
This is for a TV series, where the music will be an integral part of, substantially, the whole episode; but there are occasional narrations entries. In these cases, I have been forced to lower the volume of music, so that the narration can be heard. But I do not think this is the best solution. I apologize, but I am completely ignorant in this respect: what is an automated ducker?
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Unknowen
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 15:23:16
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Hay look, Somethings are not locked in stone... lol 3/18/2019
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 15:39:42
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 16:36:51
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☄ Helpfulby rogeriodec 2017/11/04 15:21:46
I have had quite a bit of experience with this. Firstly the music itself must be designed in a way as such the passages under the dialogue need to be much more underscore orientated rather than melodic. You give no information as to what the music actually is and where it comes from. As a TV and film composer myself it is important to not get too busy or melodic under any dialogue. eg a soprano sax solo under a dialog passage is out. Get what I mean. Many composers fail in this regard by the way. Dont let the dialogue get buried either. Sometimes it annoys me a lot when the mixers are pushing the music so hard you cannot actually hear the dialogue. Your director should keep you on the straight and narrow with this. If you have no control over the music (ie production library music) then there are other things you can do. One is insert a dip in the frequency response of the music as well around the mid and upper mid range frequencies when the dialogue is present. ie make room for the dialogue like we do with carving a little hole in the response of instruments for vocals in a music mix etc.. A dynamic equaliser is handy here and you could also side chain this to the dialogue track too. Note the music should come back to normal response wise when the dialogue is not present and smoothly as well. ie you should not notice the change in the music EQ either. But from what I can see and having sat in a lot of audio dubs, automation is still the main key here. Ducking can sound a little too obvious if done poorly and is not the way really. If you are good with the automation you can lift and lower music levels so subtly that you should not really even hear or notice the changes. The final sound mix for any TV production usually takes around a 10:1 ratio. ie it takes 10 hours to mix a 1 hour production usually. There is no fast way here. Especially if SFX are involved as well both Foley and atmos related.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/09/19 17:21:12
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Jimbo 88
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 17:11:26
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I too have tons of experience with this. Jeff's points are great... Ducking using side chaining is great and the industry norm. I like his frequency trick. I use that one everyday. Good luck.
post edited by Jimbo 88 - 2016/09/19 17:34:03
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Anderton
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 17:57:12
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+1 on Jeff's comments. The only thing I'd add is that with projects like commercials and industrial videos, I compress the music's dynamics more than I would normally. This gives a higher average level with a lower peak level, so it still sounds "loud" but the voice can float above it.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 18:44:57
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Craig's point is also very good. I forgot to mention it myself. Many library tracks are pretty compressed to start with but often composers music is not so much so you can clamp a compressor down a little harder on these types of tracks and as Craig says the music will end up still being heard quite well but it can be dropped down a little under the dialogue and still makes its presence felt. The harder compression will be masked by the dialogue too. Another good thing to do is listen to your final mix through say a small mono Auratone type spekaer at low volume. (In many sound dub situations I attended I was always a little surprised at how soft they monitor while they do the mix) The small mono speaker will really reveal what is going on and is more akin to a lot of TV's and things that the soundtrack will often be heard on. Do not assume everyone is listening on a full surround Hi Fi setup. They are not.
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Kev999
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 19:06:41
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Certainly ducking is the way to do it, but it's not always necessary to duck everything. Some instruments don't need to be ducked if their freqency range does not overlap with the dialog. I would arrange the routing so that the instruments that need to be ducked pass through a single bus and then apply ducking to that bus, with fast attack and release. If some instruments are particularly distracting, then I would duck them separately, and less subtly, with slightly longer release time.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 19:14:48
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Kev999 Certainly ducking is the way to do it, but it's not always necessary to duck everything. Some instruments don't need to be ducked if their freqency range does not overlap with the dialog. I would arrange the routing so that the instruments that need to be ducked pass through a single bus and then apply ducking to that bus, with fast attack and release. If some instruments are particularly distracting, then I would duck them separately, and less subtly, with slightly longer release time. It is very rare to have access to the music in stem form in order to process only certain parts of the music. It does work a little more like that in major films but rarely in a TV series. Maybe in some of the bigger series but often not. The fact is the there should be nothing distracting to start with under any of the dialogue if the composer has done their job well. You often not only get an edit of the scene but the dialogue is usually there to alert you where it comes in goes out. From experience ducking seems to be more a radio thing and in many of the docos I was involved with they never ducked the music either. They automated it. Sometimes a music cue can lower its level quite slowly but then comeback up a little faster. If you are ducking you have to really set those attack and release parameters well. Often the attack is not slow enough either to create the effect of the music easing down as opposed to jumping down. Kev's approach is good though if you are creating the music in your DAW and you have the video playing and even be lucky enough to have the dialogue track playing at the same time. But instead of ducking elements down in order to stay out of the way of the dialogue why not remove them all together. Re arrange the music so the melody lines sort of come to rest just prior to dialogue and picking up after it stops. This is still way better than ducking. Because the offending sounds are not even there to start with. Dialogue will often be in large blocks. Also if you are working with production library music often the better libraries offer an underscore version and the tracks will be identical time wise. Except all the melodic information has been removed. You can always have both on your time line and cross fade from the melodic tracks to the underscore tracks quite nicely and all seamlessly too. I have done that before too. Another thing to watch is effects too. If there are huge effects things going on you may want to keep the music very simple at that point too.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/09/19 20:02:29
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 20:47:45
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I think Jeff said everything that can be said on this topic. So will do nothing more than recap. 1. The best solution is be able to manipulate the original source material so that you can elegantly remove the lead/solo/'singing' parts from the underlying backing tracks during the dialog sections. 2. Short of that, or possibly in conjunction with it, you can do selective frequency ducking on the source material so as to allow sonic space for the dialog. This ducking can happen either via an actual frequency dependent ducker or via automation envelopes with a good EQ plugin. 3. A combination of 1 and 2 is probably your best bet.
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Unknowen
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/19 21:52:33
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I thought someone would have mentioned Vocal Rider from Waves as well. Simplest. It’s on sale right now for 99.00 at the Waves site.
Hay look, Somethings are not locked in stone... lol 3/18/2019
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rogeriodec
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 10:54:03
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Passive Drift I thought someone would have mentioned Vocal Rider from Waves as well. Simplest. It’s on sale right now for 99.00 at the Waves site.
Interesting. Does anyone know whether Vocal Rider is the same thing as Sidechain / ducking compression, with other name? Or better? Or worse?
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Anderton
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 11:24:11
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Vocal Rider is about keeping a constant vocal level, not ducking.
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rogeriodec
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 11:31:45
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Anderton Vocal Rider is about keeping a constant vocal level, not ducking.
This would not be the same as compression?
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Brian Walton
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 12:12:48
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rogeriodec
Anderton Vocal Rider is about keeping a constant vocal level, not ducking.
This would not be the same as compression?
Not exactly. It is supposed to be more like riding the volume control to maintain the same level (but doing the work for you and more efficiently). Compression is a different effect. I tried it a while ago and that is what I recall.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 12:27:33
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Compressors were originally designed to automatically ride the volume to even out level fluctuations It was only later they were employed as an effect in their own right as engineers started to add controls like attack/release etc, providing the opportunity to reshape the dynamic envelope.
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...wicked
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 13:57:41
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I'm a little confused. Unless you have access to have the music written in a way to naturally leave room for narration vox there really isn't any way to practically do what you're asking without lowering the music volume (via whatever technique works). I'd reconsider your premise that the music always needs to be out front in relation to your narration unless you have a wacky plan for one or the other (doing an experimental treatment on the narration vox for example).
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Brian Walton
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 14:21:10
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...wicked I'm a little confused. Unless you have access to have the music written in a way to naturally leave room for narration vox there really isn't any way to practically do what you're asking without lowering the music volume (via whatever technique works). I'd reconsider your premise that the music always needs to be out front in relation to your narration unless you have a wacky plan for one or the other (doing an experimental treatment on the narration vox for example).
The OP is really just asking how to automate the process without having to sit through some long track pushing the volume up and down when each clip of narration start and stops. The volume changing is the effect he wants, it is the time consuming way of doing it that he is trying to avoid. Thus why you see responses related to processes that automatically make such changes based on certain variables.
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rogeriodec
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 14:26:51
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...wicked I'm a little confused. Unless you have access to have the music written in a way to naturally leave room for narration vox there really isn't any way to practically do what you're asking without lowering the music volume (via whatever technique works). I'd reconsider your premise that the music always needs to be out front in relation to your narration unless you have a wacky plan for one or the other (doing an experimental treatment on the narration vox for example).
It's something to think about. Let's take a classic example: Tom & Jerry. The music plays practically all the time, and eventually there is some narration. You mean in this case that music should always be limited to, e.g. -10db? And the voice would be above, e.g. 0dB?
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 17:33:05
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I don't believe anyway that there is any effective automatic solution. An automatic solution is always going to sound automatic. eg dialogue comes in, music drops (jumps) down, dialogue goes away music rises (jumps) up to a similar level to dialogue etc. They have automatic solutions on radio but it seems to work there. If you are really serious about this, manual automation is really the only way to go. What is the problem in doing that. Are you so pushed for time and the budget so low that proper automation is not possible. If that were the case I would not even take the job. Time and money must be allowed for the mixing of the soundtrack. It just sounds so much nicer when this is done properly. As I have said music can ease down under dialogue and ease or rise so nicely you hardly notice the effect etc.. All the great TV soundtracks you hear have been properly mixed. Time has been spent in this area. It is hard work and takes time but the results will show. You end up with this seamless soundtrack that just flows nicely. Sometimes it is nice for the music to sit just under the dialogue especially if the music is not too busy at that point, other times it needs to sit a little lower in relation to the dialogue. These types of decisions cannot be made automatically, only you with your ears can do that. Same thing when the dialogue stops, sometimes the music might not reach full soundtrack level because it sounds better 3 dB below that. Other times it is nice for the music to ease up to the full soundtrack level. Sometimes certain vocal words or phrases also need to automated a certain way in order for them to achieve better clarity too. Something Vocal Rider and things cannot handle that well. Automatic systems and just not smart enough to make those sort of decisions. I have sat in many soundtrack mixing sessions. It is like a fine tooth comb over every second of the final soundtrack. That is why it usually takes ten times as long as the program itself in order to do it. I have seen some soundtrack mixers spend over an hour getting 5 seconds of a final soundtrack mix right. And to your last post too, no, leaving the dialogue at full level and the music to a certain level below that sounds terrible. As soon as the dialogue stops there will be a big hole in the audio eg the soundtrack goes quiet. Not good. Often a lot of cheap adverts are mixed that way and it sounds terrible. Listen to high end adverts and listen to how good it all sounds in the end. Listening is the key as well. Listen to lots of TV soundtracks and you will start to get the idea.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/09/20 17:57:08
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...wicked
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Re: Best way for mixing a narration with background music?
2016/09/20 17:59:06
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rogeriodec It's something to think about. Let's take a classic example: Tom & Jerry. The music plays practically all the time, and eventually there is some narration. You mean in this case that music should always be limited to, e.g. -10db? And the voice would be above, e.g. 0dB?
Uh, Tom & Jerry had narration? I thought all their sounds were generated by orchestral elements (except when they were actually "singing"). At least the ones that were out when I was young. I'll have to go and re-watch some!
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