Helpful ReplyBest way to add high end sheen?

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caminitic
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2013/08/17 18:02:32 (permalink)

Best way to add high end sheen?

So, in addition to death and taxes, another certainty in life is that my home mixes usually lack in the 12-15K+ range, as evidenced by a spectrum analyzer (for example, I usually have a hard time getting on the pesky 3db guide line on Ozone).
 
My room, well, is my room (12' x 11'), but most of my stuff is happening ITB.  Which method would best accomplish this feat?
 
EQ boost?  Harmonic exciter?  On certain tracks vs. master bus?  Done during mastering instead?  Thanks for any input! =)
 
#1
sharke
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/17 18:08:09 (permalink)
Well, you could put a low shelf below 12K and turn the volume up :)

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#2
caminitic
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/17 18:13:46 (permalink)
Thanks sharke.  I just wish I knew what that meant and how to accomplish it...  :-/
 
Any chance you could elaborate???
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gswitz
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/17 18:29:04 (permalink)
it means that rather than boosting the high end, cut the low end evenly up to around 12 kHz.
 
The equivalent is a boost above 12 kHz.

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caminitic
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/17 18:31:46 (permalink)
Thanks gswitz.  On the entire mix (i.e. master bus)?  Or just individual tracks?  Thanks.
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Wouter Schijns
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/17 18:51:00 (permalink)
Would hit 'Gloss' button on ProChannel EQ, it's designed for that (just wished it was a knob, not a button)
(adds around 1.5db)
 
Or/and enable ProChannel N-type Console Emulator (Tolerance ON).
Just by enabling it, without dialing drive/trim gives you sheen (plus 1.5 db too)
 
good luck

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#6
mattplaysguitar
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/17 20:10:15 (permalink)
If a 3-6dB boost (at most) doesn't give you the sheen you want to hear (NOT whatever you see on the analyzer - ignore that silly thing) then your recording or sample is no good. Simple as that. You might then resort to a little suble excitation to cheat, but its not the real thing and gets harsh very easily.

Remember that not everything needs that sheen. Cymbals, high percussion, acoustic, airy vox might benefit, but only used appropriately. Are you actually aware what 12-15khz sounds like? There is not a lot there. High pass a pro song and listen to the range. You'll be surprised. Compare with your mixes.

Only condenser mics will give you this. A dynamic wont work.

The tools should be used to assist in getting you to the end result but you can't try to machine a block of alumini into steel no matter what you do. If it ain't there, it just ain't there.


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clintmartin
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/17 20:45:29 (permalink)
I'm still just learning like you, but for the entire mix I would try a High pass filter and cutting the mids before I did a boost in the highs. If you still feel you need to boost the highs by more than 1.5 to 2 dbs I would go back to the mix and try to fix the real problem. It's good advice that I need to follow myself!

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#8
AT
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 01:20:53 (permalink)
I would pick out the tracks you want "sheen" on.  It will make them stand out as long as there is something up there for lp to work on.  On the entire mix I'd be wary of dipping so high up - you might be better off boosting a little w/ a gentle curve starting about 10 kHz.
 
The gloss button adds a little presence at abou 1000 Hz.  Brandon I think finally gave that info up when everyone was beating up on him.  Much farther down than "air", which is most often what is being called "sheen" in this thread.
 
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 01:51:06 (permalink)
mattplaysguitar
If a 3-6dB boost (at most) doesn't give you the sheen you want to hear (NOT whatever you see on the analyzer - ignore that silly thing) then your recording or sample is no good. Simple as that. You might then resort to a little suble excitation to cheat, but its not the real thing and gets harsh very easily.

Remember that not everything needs that sheen. Cymbals, high percussion, acoustic, airy vox might benefit, but only used appropriately. Are you actually aware what 12-15khz sounds like? There is not a lot there. High pass a pro song and listen to the range. You'll be surprised. Compare with your mixes.

Only condenser mics will give you this. A dynamic wont work.

The tools should be used to assist in getting you to the end result but you can't try to machine a block of alumini into steel no matter what you do. If it ain't there, it just ain't there.


Hi caminitic . . . . mattplaysguitar's post above has provided a great answer to your question, if I may humbly try to add anything else to it.
 
Especially true in pop music with drums . . . there's only a small bit of audio up there in that range, trying to re-manufacture 12-15K at mastering stage can really wreck a mix, so must be very subtle. It would be best to have those frequencies already naturally existing in your tracks, if possible.
 
Your listening room is a huge factor, always test you final mixes in as many listening environments as possible, from headphones to car stereo.
 
I have some mixes from many years ago, where we thought it was wise to add some harmonic exciter, now I don't like to listen to them because
a little became too much, and no one wants to turn down the treble every time your song comes on.  There is a definite listening fatigue when a recording has a top end / bottom end imbalance.
 
The scientific "spectrum analyzer" version of your recordings will sound best to robots, if that is your target audience.

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#10
caminitic
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 09:54:49 (permalink)
Thanks everyone...very inspiring, helpful answers.  I will definitely try them out.
 
I guess the reason I "thought" the problem may be residing in that EQ region is, not only the Spectrum Analyzer information, but the depressing "listen in the car" test when it seems like my beautiful reverbs and cymbal shimmer all but disappear as compared to commercial mixes.
 
Always have to remind myself that I'm NOT making commercial, mastered mixes though!  Hope I'm not the only one who sets that unrealistic bar sometimes!!!
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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 13:39:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby caminitic 2013/08/18 15:04:58
To begin with, your source has to generate those frequencies, and your modicum of capture has to support it. Vocals, a decent condenser mike, a short clean signal path to tape, in mono, sure. ITB or hardware synth...maybe, maybe not. If it isn't there to begin with, faking it with distortion or a severe EQ treatment probably isn't going to make you happy at the end.
 
Sheen is a pretty big word, but if you are looking at a spec analyzer I assume you mean exactly what you're asking for. Stand back and look at the entire process, from performance sourceS to your ears, receiving energy from your monitors. Ask yourself things like this:
 
1. What are my sheen options here?
 
2. Where do I want this sheen in the end?
 
3. Start to finish, what can possibly damage, counteract, mask, or otherwise step on my intended sheen? You may already have all you want, but by Fletcher Munson comparison, something you don't want sheeny is so sheeny that your intended sheen looks punk by comparison. In other words, make sure it's possible, and get the problems out of the way first. That's how you avoid painful sheen.
 
If you get thru all this, and it's there to begin with, just not strong enough where you want it, you have a TON of options. Look at them individually, because a great many of them may add broad sheen, while smearing localized sheenlet bands, and make things worse.
 
If you have waves five feet long, its going to take some significant phase delay to move the crests 2.5 feet in spacetime to make them cancel out, but that's thump, not sheen. Very slight phasing issues can cancel sheen. You can make this work FOR you as well because at high frequencies, phase summation lands very close to phase cancellation, selectivity is the key. If it stands out where you want it to with no downside, it's a win, no matter how you get there. Best to balance EQ without artifacts, though, simplest in the long run.
 
Options...including but not limited to, in my rough order of desirability:
 
Faders, Frequency Selective Cloning, Automation, Imaging, EQ cuts, Compression, Expansion, Modulation, Distortion, Reverb, EQ boosts,...but...best of all
 
Get it right on the way in, and never have to think about any repairs later. You need a wide arsenal of fixes in your pocket, artists are going to get tired, tight on money, tight on time. In rare situations, an after the fact repair is your only option.
 
But...I also do photography and the illustration is simpler. I can Photoshop the wrinkles off an old hag, AND fix the original lighting errors, AND rebalance the color temperature, AND sharpen the fuzz from cheap glass...
 
OR...
 
I can hire the right model to begin with, know my equipment well enough to choose the path to tech success (or buy/rent/borrow what the job requires).
 
Repairs can be adequate, but the image that sells is the one I never have to touch, that rocks from the beginning, and...it doesn't cost me hours and hours of tweaktime. In countless hours of attempted repair, I have NEVER been able to get "adequate" to match "brilliant from the gitgo".
 
The best I have accomplished, is to turn "marginal" into "adequate".
 
Strive for the brilliance.
 
 

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#12
caminitic
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 15:08:40 (permalink)
Jay Tee - 
 
How far are you from Nashville and how soon can I fly you here for a weekend???? ha ha
 
Brilliant stuff man.  Thanks for taking the time to reply!!
 
 
 
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 16:01:21 (permalink)



#14
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 16:13:16 (permalink)
caminitic
Harmonic exciter?




I've just been checking out the new(ish) Cosmos plug from Nomad Factory.  I'm finding it very impressive.  A lot of effects of this nature seem to be over the top ... you need to keep the "drive" (or whatever) very much in the low zone or you get nasty sounding results.  Not so Cosmos.  The factory presets are actually ones I'd probably use with minimal tweaking.  Cosmos has got a sub-bass function that I have yet to figure out (documentation is pretty sketchy), but the dual-range exciter "circuits" add some nice sizzle that is nevertheless in very good taste, IMO.
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 22:54:38 (permalink)
Brilliant answers guys,I just learned things I've always been unsure of to ask!
 
Now to just put them into practice....tastefully
Cheers
Bob
PS mike_mccue, may I ask WHAT brand/type[brand moreso] of "analyzer" is that in your post? thanks.

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Kev999
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/18 23:39:43 (permalink)
Alan Parsons has said that he often records with "too much" brightness and reduces it later, to avoid having too little and needing to boost it.
 

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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 00:15:13 (permalink)
Kev999
Alan Parsons has said that he often records with "too much" brightness and reduces it later, to avoid having too little and needing to boost it.
 

Very Interesting,I've recently been using waves Aural Exciter[lightly]and Plug and Mix[formerly Don't Crack]have one or two "high"plugs Brightness,Low Air-[I think?] ,but they have some incredible,maybe the word is"powerful" Low End thumpers [Clairisonix,Maxx Bass,Monster Boost]in fact their V.I.P bundle[40 plugins!] was the first purchase I made outside of cakewalk,but due to waves having some amazing sales,I've unfortunately/fortunately inundated myself with plugins,many of which I haven't even used,and don't have a clue how to use correctly,more time more time.
 
Alan Parsons quote gives even more credence to cutting rather than boosting,and also I suspect,at getting the tone from the source,something I certainly have to get better at.
Cheers
Bob

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#18
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 06:52:49 (permalink)
Hi Bob,
 That's a screen shot from one of the windows in the NuGen Visualizer VST.
 
 
 best regards,
mike


#19
ston
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 07:34:37 (permalink)
13KHz is the upper limit of my hearing these days, so I (have to) concentrate on 10-13K for high-end 'sheen'.  Question to those with younger ears, do you notice much difference if the sounds above 13KHz are not present in a piece of music?
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Kev999
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 07:53:26 (permalink)
ston
13KHz is the upper limit of my hearing these days...

 
Presumably due to listening to too much music with high end sheen.

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#21
ston
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 08:43:17 (permalink)
Kev999
Presumably due to listening to too much music with high end sheen.

:-)
 
It's probably more the inevitable march of time...
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 09:53:00 (permalink)
Kev999
Alan Parsons has said that he often records with "too much" brightness and reduces it later, to avoid having too little and needing to boost it.
 



Is this part of the justification for the very expensive microphones that tend to separate the big studios from the typical home studio?

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brconflict
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 10:18:13 (permalink)
If it's to add a soft sheen, I will use slight Flux in the Waves Tape simulator. I haven't tried the Aural Exciter, but I hear/read that's really one of the best tools for "exciting" the top end.

Brian
 
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 10:32:34 (permalink)
cparmerlee
Kev999
Alan Parsons has said that he often records with "too much" brightness and reduces it later, to avoid having too little and needing to boost it.
 



Is this part of the justification for the very expensive microphones that tend to separate the big studios from the typical home studio?




 
Probably not.
 
The microphones that seem to be the most expensive have characteristics that cater to a keen awareness of what is happening in the lower mid range. You will see discussions comparing which of those special mics have the airy hi end but it is within a context of an appreciation of shared qualities in the more important mid range character.
 
In other words, people usually don't start speaking about the difference between a U47 and a 251c until they are taking the wonderful translation of the lower mids for granted.
 
All those other mics that have gotten cheaper as they get older missed the boat on the midrange... most newly made mics missed that boat too.
 
When you see folks focusing on the hi frequency extension available with condenser mics they are conveying a specific range of appreciation. It may be a factual observation, but it is not the characteristic that has fueled the hi valuation of the mics that cost $300 in the 1950s and cost $10k these days.
 
 
best regards,
mike


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cparmerlee
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 10:59:35 (permalink)
mike_mccue
Probably not.
 
The microphones that seem to be the most expensive have characteristics that cater to a keen awareness of what is happening in the lower mid range. You will see discussions comparing which of those special mics have the airy hi end but it is within a context of an appreciation of shared qualities in the more important mid range character.
 
In other words, people usually don't start speaking about the difference between a U47 and a 251c until they are taking the wonderful translation of the lower mids for granted.
 
All those other mics that have gotten cheaper as they get older missed the boat on the midrange... most newly made mics missed that boat too.
 
When you see folks focusing on the hi frequency extension available with condenser mics they are conveying a specific range of appreciation. It may be a factual observation, but it is not the characteristic that has fueled the hi valuation of the mics that cost $300 in the 1950s and cost $10k these days.

Thank you.  I'll have to keep working on my ear in that range.  These subtleties are mostly lost on me.  But then, almost everything I do is live recording, so the background noise is probably louder than these subtleties.
 
BTW, last year, I had several otherwise nice recordings killed when halfway through the set, the cicadas decided to start singing.  Once they really got going, those darn things are loud.  I haven't had any of that this year.  I guess this is an off year for the broods.  Talk about adding a sheen to the recording ...
 

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#26
konradh
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 11:57:20 (permalink)
It is almost a standard thing to boose 10-12K on acoustic guitars, but, with my source signals, I hear very little difference.

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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 12:15:34 (permalink)
Sorry if someone posted this suggestion.
 
You may find that taking away some frequency around 300hz to 400hz, give or take some hz, will do the trick just fine. A lot of times is mid range clutter that is fooling you into thinking you need high end.
 
Someone suggested making sure each part has what it needs. This is most helpful as one part can step on another. You can alleviate this by panning and giving each part it's own EQ space.
 
What I like to do is this:
 
  • EQ, give eSolo each part and get it sounding the way I like it. I do the panning here.
  • Route groups, say guitars, to one bus and get them sounding the way I want them. Do this for each group.
  • Then, using subtractive EQ, give  ach group it's own space.
HTH

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#28
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 12:27:14 (permalink)
There is very little energy up there.  And as you get older you start losing it anyway (esp. if you do rock or go to concerts and like to experience trouser flapping).  Plus you have to have nice monitors etc. for the +10K frequencies to shine (or sheen) over the all the energy below 1 kHz.  So it isn't disabling if you understand your limitations.  It is something you feel more than hear anyway - like tummy rumblings for bass at a live big venue show.
 
So even if you can't hear it distinctly, you can add some sheen to the instruments w/ a gentle lift up there.  I use a shelf on vox and one or two other selected instruments to provide air to the entire soundscape.  Your kids and dog will notice ... but actually there is some interference (just like overtones from a fundamental) in the lower registers which helps defines the "air" frequencies - or that is my theory.  Lifting the high end brings out the vox etc. subtlely, even if you don't hear those 16 kHz shades.
 
That is why the old classic mics still sound good - it ain't the 12 kHz so much that they do their magic on - it is lower than that.  In the frequencies you can actually hear and not increase the sibilance around 6/7 kHz if you don't clobber them w/ a compressor.
 
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#29
Starise
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Re: Best way to add high end sheen? 2013/08/19 14:04:08 (permalink)
 When I first started listening to music in a big way years ago I always liked to hear  that little high end *ting* coming from a good set of tweeters. It made cymbals sound like real cymbals, and you could hear the pluck of acoustic guitar strings along with the finger noise. Later on I realized that a lot of that energy isn't in the high end but some of it is.   I still like that effect, although not everyone does. Some people prefer a mix that doesn't have much high end energy in it.
 
 EQ clarity between tracks, is probably one of the best ways to bring out each track and in doing so brings out more  in the instruments you want to hear it in,also, like someone else has  already said phase cancellation can generally muck things up. Some pre amps/mics can add subtle harmonics and exitation in a good way simply because of the way they are designed, and this can be duplicated pretty well with the right plug ins.
 
 I would rather err by adding a little much than the other extreme and not adding enough, but that's just me. My rational is that most systems are low end systems and won't reproduce it anyway. On the ones that will, if it's too much for the listener they have a tone control to roll some of it off. Nothing is worse than wanting more sheen, rolling your tone control up and it isn't there. I have both the Sonic Maximizer plug and the hardware. In the right setting it can help but the catch is not to use it like catsup at the restaurant.
 
 I agree with others here that less is usually more..even though Alan Parsons said it :) Cutting rather than boosting the right frequencies can clarify a mix.If it is boosted in a desired range the boost is very minimal. Trying to  impose a trait to a track that was never there in the first place usually doesn't work. Good at the start means something good to work with. Mediocre at the beginning has usually resulted in me fighting my mixes to death and still not getting good results.
 
 There are some good  approaches to a mix with regard to EQ and frequency roll off for various instruments to fit better in a mix, but none of them are across the board every time and this is why I am starting to really dislike those pre dialed settings in things like Alloy 2. Bass adjusted to one song will sit different in another, same with all the rest. Unless you make carbon copy songs with all the same instruments every time recorded in the same space there will always be subtle differences.
 
 

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