Helpful ReplyBest way to convert or quantize real drum tracks

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HighAndDry
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2016/11/14 15:34:07 (permalink)

Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks

I want to get good at using real drums and converting/quantizing them etc.  Is drum replacer the best way to go?

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chuckebaby
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/14 17:04:13 (permalink)
it depends, if you want to keep the original drums you have recorded then no, Autosnap is the best way to go.
it is very time consuming and tedious but it works. 
 

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Westside Steve Simmons
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/14 17:55:34 (permalink)
Will melodyne work?

WSS
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gbowling
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/14 18:14:58 (permalink)
Audiosnap is the best way to go. There is an old post by Lord Tim that gives a very good work flow for doing this. Do a search for it and you'll find it. 
 
Basically it outlines how to take a snare or kick track, copy it, use a very aggressive gate on it, so aggressive that it only leaves a blip for the hard hits. You'll now use this track as a guide track to accurately get the transients across all your tracks. Audiosnap doesn't really do a very good job so getting this track right is imperative to getting a good guide track with accurate transients identified.
 
Then turn transients on for all the tracks, set all the other tracks to 100% so NO transients are shown. Set the transients on this guide track to something sensible, maybe 50% or so to get the transients desired.
 
Manually make sure you have all the transients you want showing on the guide track. 
 
Then merge and lock the transients from the guide track across all the multitrack drums. You'll then have to unlock the tracks so you can move them. 
 
Now you can select all the tracks (a track selection group helps here) and manually move the transients across all tracks simultaneously to align them with the grid how you like. 
 
It's a tedious process, but works wonders. If you also want to overlay drums from AD2 or Session Drummer, you can use the guide track to copy the midi notes and overlay a snare or kick (whichever track you used) or use the same gating technique to create midi notes for other drums. 
 
gabo

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Cactus Music
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/14 21:11:07 (permalink)
OR- what I did was sample the real drums, edit them and put them in  Session drummer to play certain parts mixed in with the real stuff. Best of both worlds.  I find Hi Hats and cymbals tricky, drum replacer makes a huge mess of them. And it seems to only use it's own sounds..   Audio snap usually sends me running for a stiff drink! But it can glean a usable kick and snare drum midi track.   The rest, forget it... If you can tighten up the kick and snare it will make a huge difference to a sloppy drum take. 
So I mix the real with the midi and my drummer is never told about it.. all he hears is his drums and of course remembers playing perfectly :)  

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HighAndDry
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/14 21:49:35 (permalink)
Thank you guys.  I will search for that post
 

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jb101
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/15 07:34:39 (permalink)
@Cactus Music - I am pretty sure you can use your own sounds in Drum Replacer.

I seem to remember experimenting with it when it came out. Just as a test to learn to use it, I took some Simon Phillips drum loops (long ones), and used drum replacer to replace them all with one shots from the same Simon Phillips library.

I seem to remember that the results were pretty good, and sounded VERY similar to the original loops.

Now I know this may seem a pointless exercise, but I did it to familiarise myself with Drum Replacer. If the drumming had been sloppy and badly recorded. (i e. not Simon Phillips in a top studio), then i would have been able to tidy it up, etc.

Sorry for all the waffle. I am stuck in hospital again, and they're running over an hour late.. 😉

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gbowling
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/15 09:06:18 (permalink)
I didn't go find Lord Tim's post. But I did find that I had copied the note and put it in a safe place on my computer. So all the credit for the following goes to Lord Tim! I just cut n pasted it from his post so these are all his words!
 
I will say that I have used this method and it works very well. The only change I have made to it, is instead of adding the transients to the pool, I just merged and locked the transients across the tracks. Either way works just as well.
 
1. Record the drums (duh)

2. Find out which tracks are the main timing guides - usually kick and snare tracks. Clone them.

3. Solo the cloned tracks. On the clones, you want to aggressively gate the hell out of them so you're just getting the initial pop on the start of each hit and nothing else - the track has to be completely silent between hits. It'll sound like garbage, but that's not the point - we're not going to be using these for anything other than our timing guide.

4. Bounce those gated tracks to a new track. That's going to be your guide track now. You can either mute or delete those original cloned and gated tracks now.

5. Enable Audiosnap on all of your tracks, including the new guide track. On the Audiosnap palette, drag the Threshold slider all the way up to 100%. This will make every transient on all of the tracks disappear.

6. On your guide track, lower the Threshold until you get a useful amount of transients turn up. If you're lucky, they'll be on every hit, and if you're even more lucky, you won't need to go in and manually move anything to be on the beat and you're good to go.

7. More than likely things will need adjusting, so zoom in on your guide track with the transients and move, add or delete transient markers until you have one on every hit. Getting your guide right is crucial to this all working well.

8. Right-click the guide track, go to Pool > Add Clip to Pool. All of the transients will turn blue, telling you they've been added to the pool.

9. Select all of the other drum tracks, right click on any one of them and go to Pool > Apply transient pool markers. You'll see transient lines appear on all of the clips that line up with the blue transients in the guide track.

10. Select all of the tracks (including the guide), right click any one of them and go to Quantize and make sure Audiosnap Beats is checked. Quantize to taste.

That should get you 95% of the way there. Mute the guide track and listen back - has the quantizing put beats in the wrong place? You need to go back and manually adjust things. Turn your Snap on, find the beat that's not correct, left-mouse lasso around the transients that are on the wrong beat so they're selected across all of the tracks, and drag to the correct position.

All where it should be? Great! This is using the Online stretch algorithm so it won't sound amazing, so you'll need to bounce all of the tracks to new clips so it uses the better quality Offline algorithm. Delete the guide track and you're done!

Things to consider:

This is locking things up pretty tight. If you don't want things quite as tight, you can play around with groove quantizing and things like that. It's fiddly and results are honestly hit and miss.

The reason I went to the trouble of making these guide tracks is because transient detection currently sucks whenever there's any slight bit of noise other than what you want to detect on a track. It's almost to the point of being unworkable, in fact in the past I've gone through and manually placed transients because it's been quicker doing that than fixing all of the wrong ones SONAR has "helpfully" put in for me. The guide tracks cut out a LOT of unwanted track bleed and DRAMATICALLY help the detection algorithm.

If you need timing from something like a hi-hat or an overhead mic or something, honestly, save yourself the headache and manually put transients in. It'll be about as much work doing that as fixing SONAR's mistakes and you'll likely do a better job at it. 

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joeb1cannoli
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/15 09:10:30 (permalink)
Westside Steve Simmons
Will melodyne work?

WSS

I have the upgrade to Melodyne 4 Editior. 
The stand alone version is amazing at detecting tempo and correcting it.
I have not had good luck dragging tracks into the timeline within Sonar.
 
I use Drum Replacer more as more as a drum enhancer. Mostly to add a little punch to the kick or snare.
 

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/15 12:24:06 (permalink)
HighAndDry
I want to get good at using real drums and converting/quantizing them etc.  




this is a major contradiction in itself.
 
if you want to get good at using real drums you should not use any quantizing at all. it will just ruin it all.
 
get a good drummer, learn how to properly mic a drum kit so you can comp multi-tracked takes, etc ...
 
this is time consuming and expensive (mics and room) and will take a while until you can match sound quality from today's sample libs.

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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/15 17:23:24 (permalink)
I had high hopes for melodyne and for some things it does work quite well. However, when things don't go well it doesn't really have the tools to get multiple tracks sorted out. It's also hard to keep multiple tracks in phase with melodyne. 
 
Audiosnap gives you a lot more control over what you want to do with multitracked drums. And you can move the data across all the tracks simultaneously so keeping them in phase is easy. 
 
As a drummer, I also agree with the comment on miking, playing good parts, etc. The better your recording and playing is, the less you have to do. Although I've never seen a drum recording that couldn't be improved with layering Addictive Drums or other good samples. 
 
gabo

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maltastudio
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 02:09:59 (permalink)
Recording now a days is about correcting bad performing musicians, Drum replacer , melodyne ect ect.
The worst part of it is that you don`t even tell them about it cause nobody does.
If you do tell them you`re out of business.
I am not talking about maybe 3 to 5 kicks in a 3 min song,cause in that case I would just correct them with my ears,but a whole song keeps going in and out off timing.
How sad.
Peace

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 02:37:54 (permalink)
gbowling
As a drummer, I also agree with the comment on miking, playing good parts, etc. The better your recording and playing is, the less you have to do. Although I've never seen a drum recording that couldn't be improved with layering Addictive Drums or other good samples. 



very true. but layering is a different animal. using drum replacer, converting snare hits to MIDI, ... that's all highly valuable.
 
just don't get your hopes up that editing (or worse quantizing) can fix a poor performance. many tried that (myself included) and while you can get a long way for e.g. DI'ed bass signal and reamping, for multi-mic drum recordings it turns into an editing nightmare where you will always hear it in the end.
 

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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 02:58:07 (permalink)
maltastudio
Recording now a days is about correcting bad performing musicians, Drum replacer , melodyne ect ect.
The worst part of it is that you don`t even tell them about it cause nobody does.
If you do tell them you`re out of business.
I am not talking about maybe 3 to 5 kicks in a 3 min song,cause in that case I would just correct them with my ears,but a whole song keeps going in and out off timing.
How sad.
Peace




that's generally a sad thing today - relying way too much on computer technology and assuming upfront that it will fix things in the mix ...
 
of course, I'm also guilty of heavily melodying vocal performances so I did not have to upset the "artist". yet these are (hopefully were) the mixes I hide deeply in the archives
 
meanwhile I started to think differently and give a lot of honest feedback. I also ask people to come back later once we did listen together to the first takes. but really I rather work on the performance over a couple of tracking session and do a lot less editing on the final takes, than track quickly and spend hours editing (fixing poor performances is the most boring part of the entire game IMHO). practise gets you so much further than melodyne & co and most musicians are very thankful for quality feedback. I have been surprised many times that even people who were performing live for a decade rarely ever got honest feedback ... and usually they do appreciate that a lot.
 
 

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gbowling
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 09:15:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rob[at]Sound-Rehab 2016/11/16 09:42:52
Rob[atSound-Rehab]
practise gets you so much further than melodyne & co and most musicians are very thankful for quality feedback.



here here.. Not only that but it's a lot more fun!! I practice drums about 2+ hours at least 3-4 times per week. Been doing that for almost 40 years now! It's a lot more fun to play than it is to fiddle with the computer and the results are more rewarding too!
 
gabo

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chuckebaby
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 15:53:12 (permalink)
drum replacer works great for something's.
however it uses SFZ files like the ones that come stock with Sonar + DR from Chocolate audio.
they are multi layered samples. so if one wants to use their own samples they need to create an SFZ file, though I haven't tried this yet. I know you can drop a regular Wave file in to DR I believe but if you want true velocity scaling, you need SFZ files.

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HighAndDry
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 16:21:56 (permalink)
Thank you gbowling!!!

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HighAndDry
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 16:21:59 (permalink)
Thank you gbowling!!!

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HighAndDry
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 16:24:19 (permalink)
And thanks to everyone for your replies.  Yes.  a real drummer is the way to go for sure.  But right now my band doesn't have one.  Or a real good room to record drums in.   but generally speaking yes.  a real drummer playing with the band.  I prefer to track as a band too if possible, but it just isn't.  Peace
 

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gbowling
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Re: Best way to convert or quantize real drum tracks 2016/11/16 16:40:29 (permalink)
HighAndDry
Thank you gbowling!!!



You are more than welcome. I've spent many hours doing this and others on here helped me get it all worked out. So I'm just passing it forward. 
 
gabo

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