Sixfinger
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Best way to split a guitar signal?
I'm micing up an amp today, but also want a direct signal for the option of using and amp sim as well. I just tried one of my direct boxes by pluging my strat directly into it and connecting the the other input to the amp. I hear a slight reduction in volume and some tonal changes. Is it this direct box, or my approach? Would a simply y cord be better? Or something completely different?
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Cactus Music
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 12:09:51
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Which DI box? ,, there can be big differences in the cheaper brands. A Radial for example would not do that. A Y cord will change the impedance so is a bad idea. Best solution is a Good quality DI box. Does your amp have a line out?
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Beepster
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 12:09:52
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Probably just the DI box. I don't think a Y chord will work the way you want. The split signal needs to be boosted or whatever a DI box does. Is there no trim or other settings on the box? I've heard good things about Sans Amp stuff. I need to figure out something similar myself.
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Sixfinger
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 12:21:16
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The Di is a DIB-100 I just tried the y cord with one side going to the amp and one to the DI Box, as soon as I plug the end into the DI the signal to the amp changes... So yes I agree neither is ideal. I may try the line out, I know he has one (he'll be here later today) but I was hoping to keep the dI side of the signal totally clean, I mean it couldn't possibly be good to put a distorted signal into and amp sim :) except for the exceptions of course.... So in a moment I have a minicube active DI soon as I go get a battery I'll try it..... just trying to prepare.
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Beepster
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 12:23:57
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How good is he? Can you get him to just double the tracks or is it a lot of lead work?
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Sixfinger
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 12:30:14
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He's a fabulous guitar player, but it's all going to be improvised on the fly. I'm simply wanting to capture the direct signal for tonal options and all the fun toys that we have available in Guitar Rig and TH2. I have toys, I want to play with them :)
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spacey
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 12:42:42
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This will get your search started in the right direction.
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Beepster
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 12:48:57
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Well maybe you could rent a good DI box for the day. Also if the first DI box you were trying uses a battery maybe it's running out of juice or if you're using a wall adapter switch to the battery. Sometimes fresh batteries work better than plugging it into the wall. It can definitely make a difference with guitar pedals which is why I always opt for batteries over an adapter. Have fun.
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Sixfinger
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 13:14:05
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The first one was passive, The second one being active, and now that I have a battery works great! No perceivable change to the real amp. This will work for today. Spacey, thanks for the link, heading there now!
Sonar Platinum , ADK Computer -Intel - Penryn Quad Core Q9400 Processor, Windows 7 Home premium 64, RME Fireface UFX, Grace 101 Pre's, A-800 Pro, assorted mics, Strats ,Les Pauls, Mesa Boogies http://lionfeather.com
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/30 22:36:48
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 15:27:13
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A nice DI box will typically have a thru output. Route the DI's XLR for direct recording... and route the DI's 1/4" thru output to the Amp.
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Cactus Music
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 15:49:29
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Most DI's will run on Phantom power too. And if the first was passive then there was your problem. Passive DI's will load your guitars PU down so they suck away a bit of juice/ tone. This is not a problem with active instruments like a synth or acoustic guitar that has a pre amp. But Electric guitars need the active DI. That mini cube seems to be a vintage item? cool. Your hi impedance 1/4" signal passes through to the amp un altered and the transformer isolates the signal and sends it out Via the XLR as low impedance. This part will be coloured a bit depending on the transformer. Most modern amps have built in DI's which are just after the input so will not always be distorted, depends on the amp.
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bandso
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 16:11:08
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"Passive DI's will load your guitars PU down so they suck away a bit of juice/ tone." Hmmmm. I wonder if this applies to bass guitar as well. I've always used passive DI boxes for live and studio work for passive basses.(until I got an interface with Hi-z input.) I'm getting ready to record 6 string leads in exactly the same way as the OP so this post is good food for thought.
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The_7th_Samurai
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 16:46:17
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I use this http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33585&start=0 Uses Jensen transformers.....absolutely pure signal split as many as 4 ways if you wish. I sometimes use it to layer my Rocktron Prophesy with TH2, Valvulator and other processors. A bit pricey but one of the best pieces of equipment in my studio.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 17:25:26
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There is a very simple approach. Use a good quailty DI and active at that. Make sure the output that feeds the amp is in direct parallel to the input signal and there won't be any degradation. The high input impedance of the DI box will have no effect on the guitar sound back to the amp. Use phantom power as well where ever you can with a DI. It is worth it. Mikes approach while good is a bit over complicated. (It also implies you want the sound of a preamp in line to the guitar amp and in many cases it is not required or preferred. Sometimes with guitar the shortest most direct route is the best option. But Mikes approach also shows a bass guitar not a guitar and for bass I could imagine that would be a nice setup) In most situations you only need a DI and the mic signal in front of the amp. If a guitarist has got an array of effects pedals before the amp, a good approach is to record three tracks. One straight out of the guitar as mentioned. (First DI) A second track straight out of the effects units but before the amp (using a second DI) and the third the miced amp sound. Sometimes the effects straight out will sound better than the amped sound with the effects. I have just done a bunch of guitar tracks and I have found if the guitar is plugged direct to the amp and the amp is very clean sounding you don't even need the DI signal from the guitar either. The clean recorded amp sound also works fine with VST's and things. But the moment the amp sound is distorted (or effected) in any way then the DI signal becomes rather important and useful. Spend the time getting the amp settings correct and you will be much happier. Check the guitarist is using the best pickup and settings for any given sound. (and part) Often I find they don't always extract the best possible sound and you might have to do it for them. A professional guitarist will let you fiddle the sound if you are not happy. Keep the amount of reverb in the amp way down. Guitarists often try to wind up the reverb. It is horrible usually and you are stuck with it forever. You can add in any spring reverb later but also much nicer reverbs too. If you are doing multiple parts and only have one amp, having several guitars is a fantastic option. Get them to switch guitars. Even better is if they have several amps and several guitars. The approach of changing guitars and amps will have a far greater impact later on in mixing where you might want to separate things a little.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/05/16 20:05:17
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Guitarpima
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 20:32:28
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Another thought Use the effects send, if your amp has one, and go direct with that. You won't need the pre-amp portion of the amp sim. Just the cab portion.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/16 21:38:20
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Be wary of using the effects send of any guitar amp. Not good advice. Some amps that have a distortion channels like Marshalls might be sending the distorted signal from there. The ultimate place to get a total clean sound is direct out of the guitar into a DI. Then you know you have a perfect clean and unaltered sound.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/30 22:36:59
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Sixfinger
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/17 17:05:07
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Thanks, lot's of good info in here! My mini cube worked fine. One important discovery was as opposed to using a line out or fx loop, is that with the DI, or split being placed right after the guitar, I didn't have to work about the pedal that were placed in use. I never thought about using phantom power on a DI, it really works? I assumed since it takes a 9 volt battery that the 48 volts would not be healthy... Any input on that, how or why it would work from a theoretical view?
Sonar Platinum , ADK Computer -Intel - Penryn Quad Core Q9400 Processor, Windows 7 Home premium 64, RME Fireface UFX, Grace 101 Pre's, A-800 Pro, assorted mics, Strats ,Les Pauls, Mesa Boogies http://lionfeather.com
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/30 22:37:09
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/17 18:24:44
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One can easily get too carried away with all the technicalities of how things work. I say rather than spend your time reading up about power supplies (you need to be acquainted with electronics to fully get the most out of that sort of info and if you are not the you wont really benefit so much) spend your time making recordings instead with DI's and learn how to get the best out of them in terms of where they are used in the signal chain. Much more important. Yes there are some issues for sure with DI's but they are not major in the end. I have used them live and in recording situations for years without any issue and always been happy with the signal that has arrived through a DI box. The advantages of an active DI are firstly they are quick and easy to setup. Mostly they are pretty transparent in terms of what they do and because they don't have any controls and level settings and things on them it makes them easier and less prone to mis adjust. A preamp set wrongly is going to be a much worse scenario. Also remember too (and I don't think Mike is factoring this in so much) is that the clean DI signal that comes directly out of a guitar will most likely be processed pretty hard later on with an array of virtual amp and cabinet simulators so the sound of the original DI signal is going to be well and truly lost by the time it finds its way into your final stereo mix buss. Is the listener going to say Oooh I don't like that guitar sound because it was recorded through a DI with an inferior power supply? If the guitar part is killer then the listener is going to really enjoy it don't you think. That is where it's at. (Frank Gambale still sounds good through a DI. ANY DI!) I have got a box too that generates 48V DC from a 12V DC input (1 amp) so there are circuits that can step DC voltages up too. But I agree with Mike in that I am not sure they are doing that inside many DI's though. It is quite a large and heavy unit and is designed for phantom powered devices that are connected to mixers that do not offer phantom power. Use phantom power where ever you can with any DI. It will perform better for sure and also it will never go flat either!
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/05/17 18:55:28
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/30 22:37:21
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Cactus Music
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/18 00:59:13
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Like I said , most DI boxes will automatically use Phantom power if supplied,,, but make sure the one you are using say's this is OK somewhere first. I think that's a piece of vintage gear right? I mean the company doesn't have a web site. You may not be able to find a user manual. Mine say's it right on the box below the XLR output jack. This would be standard.
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Guitarpima
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/18 13:15:40
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Jeff Evans Be wary of using the effects send of any guitar amp. Not good advice. Some amps that have a distortion channels like Marshalls might be sending the distorted signal from there. The ultimate place to get a total clean sound is direct out of the guitar into a DI. Then you know you have a perfect clean and unaltered sound. I don't see the reason why not. It is either a standard or line level send and any rack effect accepts that and isn't that what an AI accepts as well. Though it is advisable to mind your levels.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Sixfinger
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/18 13:52:55
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I don't really know the history of the Minicube, A friend gave it to back in the days when we were touring with DAC, early 90's, and it sure does show signs of wear. MINICUBE audio envelope systems, Inc. MC-220 D.I. Box it has a Norm Input Amp in Lo Imp out all 1/4 inch and XLR Balanced out a ground lift push button switch and push button filter switch _____ \ It worked perfectly for me with a new fresh battery, I'll see if I can find out more before I try the phantom
Sonar Platinum , ADK Computer -Intel - Penryn Quad Core Q9400 Processor, Windows 7 Home premium 64, RME Fireface UFX, Grace 101 Pre's, A-800 Pro, assorted mics, Strats ,Les Pauls, Mesa Boogies http://lionfeather.com
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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/09/30 22:37:39
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/18 14:18:44
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gswitz
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/18 22:27:16
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Mike McCue, You have just taken a direct-box off my list indefinitely. I have never owned one. Now, I don't think I will. Thanks for that.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/18 22:32:17
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Also, I will say when I'm having a lot of fun, I run my guitar into my interface, then back out to my FX, then back in - through an amp sim -- and out to my looper, and my roland GR-20 in direct, then out to my looper, then the looper back in... I tend to record the midi for the guitar part to a silent track just to save it. It's raucous fun and I can run the guitar through Amp Sims before sending it to the looper. Look! I'm using all of my inputs for me and my guitar! Aren't I special!!
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Best way to split a guitar signal?
2013/05/19 01:45:45
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It is quite possible that the Mini Cube DI may not work with phantom power and even if it does it may not perform that well. Not using a DI simply because Mike is suggesting that some may not work so well over phantom power is not a good enough reason. The newer units such as from Radial Engineering (as Mike also points out) offer very high quality performance and use much less current drain from the phantom voltage as well to maximise their performance specs. I would be using a much more modern DI these days. They are not all created equal and have been improved over the years from various companies. Mike is correct in saying that earlier units may not get the best results from phantom power as they may be drawing too much current. If you suspect that, go for the battery for the duration of the session. Even on a 9V battery the headroom is plenty and still greater than the headroom you will be using with your DAW especially if the input signal is low eg -20 dBu or lower which is often the case coming direct out of an electric guitar. gswitz in fact here are a couple of good reasons why you should invest and carry a DI. Just buy a quality new recent one! 1 You are in a recording session and they have run out of DI's, they decide they need your dry signal coming out of the guitar. You can just use yours, patch it between guitar and amp and provide them with that signal. 2 You are on a live gig and they have run out of mics (for micing your amp) and DI's (It happens!) and they need your guitar sound. You could whip out your DI and patch between say your effects system and your amp and send them a pretty decent representation of your sound. Guitarpima if you examine a circuit you will often see the effects send is quite a way down in the chain and may contain active gain stages, saturation, tone control. You don't really know what the sound is going to be. If you want a pure representation of the dry guitar sound (as per the OP) then the DI between guitar and amp/effects is the ultimate place to do that free of any influences that follow thereafter.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/05/19 06:23:16
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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