Helpful ReplyBit Depths, Sample Rates

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thedukewestern
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2017/02/17 03:44:41 (permalink)

Bit Depths, Sample Rates

As a long time use , I'm somewhat unclear on how sonar treats Sample rates and bit depths from a global, vs project by project perspective.
 
Lets say - I started a project a few years back at 48k 24 bit.  Present day I do a lot of work at 48 k 16 bit, and have the record bit depth set to that in preferences.   When I open the old project, the sample rate and bit depth in the control bar show that sonar is running 48/16 - even though the project from a few years ago is at 48/24, This is where I don't understand... It would seem that sonar would chase the original settings of this project?   Now - lets say I add a track, will my new track be at 48/16 - or will it adhere to the projects original settings of 48/24?
 
Who can shed some light on this cavernous chasm of unclarity ?  =-)  (user error)

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soens
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 05:16:56 (permalink)
I don't seem to find any rhyme or reason for what Sonar displays in the Transport Module as it sometimes doesn't coincide with any other setting anywhere. Sonar will set your interface to that setting, tho.
 
For instance, I have a project that's set to 48/24 in Preferences but the Transport Module shows 44.1/24 while the list of audio files in Project - Audio Files... are all 44.1/16.
 
What I also don't get is why the Bit Depth in Sonar Preferences is grayed out at 24 for ASIO when the interface supports 16-64.
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thedukewestern
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 09:53:02 (permalink)
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=AudioPerformance.06.html   which answers alot of my questions... but not my main one....For example - I found this in the help documents... but - as I pointed out - it doesn't seem to add up - as sonar doesn't appear to be chasing the sample and bit rates of pre recorded sessions...? 

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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 09:58:00 (permalink)
You should check whether your audio interfaces allow sample rate and bitdepth changes from software applications

FYI my new MOTU AVBs follow whatever is defined in Sonar i.e. I can open a 44.1 kHz project right after a 96 kHz and Sonar will switch the interfaces to the proper sample rates.

My Roland interfaces (VS700, OctaCapture) did NOT do that. So unless I manually changed settings before opening the project, it would not work!

Regardless of all above I don't see any reason to record at 16 bit if your interface supports 24 bit

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scook
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 10:15:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby thedukewestern 2017/02/17 11:25:56
thedukewestern
Lets say - I started a project a few years back at 48k 24 bit.  Present day I do a lot of work at 48 k 16 bit, and have the record bit depth set to that in preferences.   When I open the old project, the sample rate and bit depth in the control bar show that sonar is running 48/16...
Who can shed some light on this cavernous chasm of unclarity ?  =-)  (user error)

The transport shows the current "Record Bit Depth" setting from Preferences > File > Audio Data. This is a global setting not a per-project setting. Any new recorded audio will be stored in the project at the value shown in the transport module.  Unlike sample rate, SONAR can work with audio clips at different bit depth settings in the same project.
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thedukewestern
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 11:27:31 (permalink)
Thanks guys - that makes sense.  Heres another question regarding rendering.  I recently "froze" a kontakt insance with some processing in the pro channel.  Does sonar render like this with processing in place?  It sounds as if it did.. which I thought it would not

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scook
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 11:36:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby thedukewestern 2017/02/17 12:53:20
It depends on the state of Track FX in the Freeze Options dialog. Open the dialog by right-clicking freeze icon. I believe Track FX is enabled by default.
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PGM
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 12:35:09 (permalink)
scook
thedukewestern
Lets say - I started a project a few years back at 48k 24 bit.  Present day I do a lot of work at 48 k 16 bit, and have the record bit depth set to that in preferences.   When I open the old project, the sample rate and bit depth in the control bar show that sonar is running 48/16...
Who can shed some light on this cavernous chasm of unclarity ?  =-)  (user error)

The transport shows the current "Record Bit Depth" setting from Preferences > File > Audio Data. This is a global setting not a per-project setting. Any new recorded audio will be stored in the project at the value shown in the transport module.  Unlike sample rate, SONAR can work with audio clips at different bit depth settings in the same project.


in preferences shows 24 bit ( gray)  in asio4all  is 24 bit, but in transport bar is 16 bit? How/....we are talking about this for few days, and all answers are incomplete..is it a glitch, is it a reason for this...why it it grey ( you can not change setting_)
 
it drive me nuts, does not see my cards as 24 bit, why? other apps do!
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scook
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 12:41:25 (permalink)
PGM
in preferences shows 24 bit ( gray)  in asio4all  is 24 bit, but in transport bar is 16 bit? How/....we are talking about this for few days, and all answers are incomplete..is it a glitch, is it a reason for this...why it it grey ( you can not change setting_)
 
it drive me nuts, does not see my cards as 24 bit, why? other apps do!


Maybe because you are looking at "Audio Driver Bit Depth" setting in Preferences > Audio > Driver Settings and not the "Record Bit Depth" setting in Preferences > File > Audio Data. The "Record Bit Depth" setting is shown in the transport module. I have never seen that drop down disabled and it has nothing to do with your driver or driver settings.
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PGM
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 12:41:26 (permalink)
this info is for US, to see, what is in a preferences....right, if its not the same, what is the reason for it....???
 
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scook
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 12:45:31 (permalink)
I believe your question hit the same time as my post. The transport displays the bit depth for what will be recorded. Has nothing to do with the bit depth of what has been recorded or what the driver is sending to SONAR.
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 12:50:50 (permalink)
OK, so it detects the what is sound card capable od recording? How?
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thedukewestern
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 12:53:06 (permalink)
scook
It depends on the state of Track FX in the Freeze Options dialog. Open the dialog by right-clicking freeze icon. I believe Track FX is enabled by default.


AHA!!!!  Thank you!!

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scook
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 13:01:11 (permalink)
PGM
OK, so it detects the what is sound card capable od recording? How?


The "Audio Driver Bit Depth" setting in Preferences > Audio > Driver Settings controls the value for incoming audio data. How SONAR detects available sound card settings depends on the driver mode. SONAR queries the driver on startup in ASIO mode. The other modes use data generated by Wave Profiler. It is not unusual for the "Audio Driver Bit Depth" drop down to be disabled in ASIO mode. Many ASIO drivers operate at a single bit depth.
 
"Record Bit Depth" setting in Preferences > File > Audio Data is shown in the transport modules and is the value used for new recording. This value defaults to 16 and does not change based on driver preferences or capabilities. To have projects record at a different setting the value must be changed manually. Changing the "Record Bit Depth" does not affect existing clips.
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 14:41:34 (permalink)
Thanks, I had no idea about file, audio data settings, It did worked.
 
wave profiler for wasapi, wdm, shows only 16 bit, and then converts file, when importing? I do know that mu realtek internal, i creative x fi usb, are 24 bit in\out ..for some reason, wave profiler detetec only 16 bit.
i mean, cards are not pro, but still. is there is something in the code that tell them, you better use 16 bit...just wondering. because, sonar is right to insist on 16 bit....
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 14:55:15 (permalink)
The bit depth of imported data is controlled by "Import Bit Depth" in Preferences > File > Audio Data. The default is "Original" which means the file is imported without changing bit depth. Information about Preferences > File > Audio Data screen may be found here. Again, file settings are independent of driver settings.
 
I have no answer for why SONAR detects hardware the way it does. I can tell you when multiple interfaces are enabled, SONAR works at bit depths common to all the drivers. So, if one interface is driver is 16 bit and another is 24 bit, SONAR will only work at 16 bit in order to make both interfaces available.
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 15:12:41 (permalink)
thank you so much. This was an issue, i did not disable internal card, and sonar lock the 16 bit. i did disable something, but not all....now wdm, wasapi show in profiler 24 bit...thank you o much for you time, and persistance in explaing.it loks easy, but it was not for me
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 15:16:58 (permalink)
Glad that worked. I tried explaining it in the other thread http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3561803 but sometimes it takes a different wording to make sense.
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 15:27:39 (permalink)
Great explanation Steve.  Thanks for helping us all get a grip on this sample rate/bit depth stuff as it applies in Sonar.

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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 15:32:35 (permalink)
sorry, i got locked with 16 bit in transport, and did not read you post quite good. how i missed your wording its a really surprising to me. now I know to disable everything when connecting usb card.
 
now about Samplitube, that sounds better.its also a puzzle. perhaps they have algorithms that enhace sound, to be percived as better...and we spend a lot of money on monitors to give us most realistic sound? 
 
the way I see it, they should all sound the same, w/o fx, in all daw...upon import...
 
 
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/17 18:40:00 (permalink)
So to sumup:
1. Pref - Audio - Audio Driver Bit Depth is grayed out when using ASIO if interface only allows one setting for ASIO.
2. Transport screen displays Pref - File - Audio Data - Record Bit Depth setting for any new recorded audio.
3. Interface may follow Sonar's setting and may not depending on the interface.
4. Frozen tracks will contain FX if set to do so by rightclicking the Freeze button.
 
What is the Transport screen actually displaying for Bit Rate and how is it changed?
post edited by soens - 2017/02/18 02:46:46
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/02/18 12:04:46 (permalink)
the transport now show 48/24, after I have change it
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Re: Bit Depths, Sample Rates 2017/04/22 20:42:56 (permalink)
Good stuff, I've been following. Today I've been getting to know my new Scarlett 18i20 2nd gen today and one goal was to ensure sample rates and bit depths were consistent in the chain without hunting all screens.
I have SPLAT on new laptop now, Windows 10. Always desktops until now and firewire FA-101interface. Been using Producer, X1, etc for maybe (7?) years

Thanks!

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