Black Lion mods

 
I'm curious how many folks have ever used gear modded by Black Lion Audio, and what the results were like. I see they have a mod for the Babyface that doesn't cost a whole lot and might make a nice improvement in the sound:
 
https://blacklionaudio.com/product/rme-babyface-mod/
 
I've also heard they are great to deal with, and definately know what they are doing...
 
Has anyone around here ever used their services?
 
 
 

Thanks, appreciate the input.
 
Rob

I know nothing about Black Lion or their mods. 
But, as a former amp tech I never "heard" any difference between a stock (properly operating) Peavey Nashville 400 amp and one that had an "audiophile" component mod that was sold by a 3rd party person.  On some devices installing for example better tolerance components can even have a negative affect.  
 
The old Fender amps, that many "must have" had very cheap high tolerance caps and resistors.  Just installing new low tolerance components can cause a major (undesired) change in the amp's tone.
 
There is a lot of voodoo in audiophile "upgrades".  Many will argue the benefits, but I can't say I agree.
 

bitflipper
I'm skeptical. I've heard many anecdotal positives, but not a single objective measurement to back them up.

Actually, that's a good point. I've only ever seen forum commentary in various places (the vast majority of those comments being raves from satisfied users), and never any actual test results or any sort of A/B tests posted, etc. I started looking into their stuff after coming across a couple of Kijiji postings from folks selling Black Lion modded gear - in particular a local guy selling a modded Digi 002 which he says sounds amazing courtesy of their premium upgrade.
 
I'm not actually interested in an old 002, but it sparked my interest in Black Lion's stuff. I'd guess some of the stuff they do -- like replacing op amps, masterclocks, etc -- might be a legitimate upgrade? My knowledge of electronics is pretty cursory. I'm totally comfortable building a PC from parts, etc, but I know very little about circuitry or the guts of the electronics.

I have no experience with BLA directly, but a number of people whose ears I trust have reported improved sound as a result of their upgrades. The parts they use aren't cheap, and for an OEM to use them in the first place would raise the build cost of their products -- not everyone will bother shooting out various interfaces to see which one sounds the best, so it's features, specs, and PRICE that sell most units in this space. 
 
BLA have been in business for a long time. Given that their customers are primarily audio engineers whose job is to evaluate sound quality, I'd say that's a pretty good indication of the value of their services.
 
Cheers,
Eddie
 

Sycraft
So at the very least I'd need to see a blind test where someone demonstrates they can pick out their modded kit reliably before I'm interested. Then to really be convinced I need to see measurements to make sure that it actually made the sound better, not just different.

 
Wow. I'd be interested to know what that measurement is that proves that something sounds "better" to the human ear. I'll have to use it on all my mixes. 
 
Cheers,
Eddie
 

Eddie TX
Wow. I'd be interested to know what that measurement is that proves that something sounds "better" to the human ear. I'll have to use it on all my mixes. 
 
Cheers,
Eddie

 
You can quantify that, in his talk he talks about how they did just that with speakers. You do proper blind subjective tests to find out what people like. Then you measure the objective differences. With speakers that is as flat as possible an on-axis frequency response and well controlled directivity.
 
For something like electronics, particularly when used in a studio when what is correct matters, not what is the most pleasing, it would be flat FR, low noise, low distortion of all kinds, and so on.
 
So ya, this really is something you can measure. You take a modded and unmodded piece of gear and do a proper blind test, see if anyone can reliably tell a difference. If not, well then you are done, mods aren't useful audibly. You can measure it if you like to see if there are any measurable differences (we can measure way more precise than we can hear). If you can hear audible differences then you go and see what those differences are. If it is something like lower noise and flatter FR, then cool, you've found a useful mod. However if they are things like higher harmonic distortion and a HF rolloff, then the mod is a waste of money as it is changing the sound.

Again, missing the point. There are two problems with what you are espousing:
 
1) In recording/music production accuracy of reproduction is paramount. After all, how will you know if the plugins you are using are giving you the intended sound, if you aren't getting accurate sound? If you monitor your mixing and mastering on a signal path that introduces lots of colouration you aren't going to get a good mix. You might think a vocal sounds nice and "fat" and "warm" when in reality your system is doing that, but the track you are laying down is not. You need your gear to be accurate so that the decisions you make are reflected in the recording. Again, this in in the talk I linked.
 
2) We CAN measure what sounds good. Really, we can. You can do double blind, subjective tests. You ask people to decide what they like, to rank it, and to talk about why. You then compile and analyze those results and you can get statistically valid data as to what people like. If you find a high r and p value, you know you have something that holds true across many listeners and we are able to find this for many things. You can then do measurement analysis and figure out what it is they are hearing that they like (or don't).
 
Really, math and science work, they really do. It isn't magic, it isn't some black art that can't be understood, it is math and science. A DAW and plugins, which is all just math, wouldn't work otherwise. And part of that science that we are better and better at is studying preference and why humans have it. Turns out often not to be arbitrary.
 
As for us naysayers... well maybe we don't have experience with their products because we have experience with electronics theory that tells us why they are not likely to be worth the money. I can think of a lot of things to spend $750 on that I know will improve my life rather than a Fireface UFX mod that I can see no evidence helps. Remember: The burden of proof is always on the claimant. They have to prove their mods do something, I don't have to prove they don't. They also make some pretty extraordinary claims like "The difference after the mod is analogous to the effect of comparing regular flat and pixilated video to the vivid sharpness and dimension of High Definition." The difference between SD and HD is exceedingly easy to see, and to test. Something like that should be 20/20 in a blind test choice and the measurements should be clear as day on an AP.
 
However I'd be happy to test it, if you want. I happen to work for a University that has all the equipment we'd need for some good measurements and tests. If you want to purchase a modded unit for me, or lend me one for an extended time, I'll spend the time arranging a test.

Eddie TX

Sycraft
So at the very least I'd need to see a blind test where someone demonstrates they can pick out their modded kit reliably before I'm interested. Then to really be convinced I need to see measurements to make sure that it actually made the sound better, not just different.

 
Wow. I'd be interested to know what that measurement is that proves that something sounds "better" to the human ear. I'll have to use it on all my mixes. 
 
Cheers,
Eddie
 

Many of the mods BLA has done is slated to improve the accuracy of the hardware, not so much the subjective, audible improvements--although there's claims to support audible improvements as well. Bitflipper does have a point in that what BLA does should be backed up by credible, measurable tests. Whether your ears can hear the difference is irrelevant, other than the idea is to get the (potential or audible) faults out of your signal chain.

I use a BLA clock on my MOTU, and I've made some OP-AMP mods that many claim to improve my signal chain. Can I hear a difference? I think the biggest difference is in the clarity of transients at 96Khz because of the external BLA clock. Aside from that, typically OP-AMP mods aren't always measured improvements, since an improvement can be subjective. In may cases they simply change the character to some very critical ears out there. And I'll admit, even as a Mastering engineer, I can barely tell a difference in many of them.

Are BLA mods placebo? Maybe some good A/B tests would help, but if were after accuracy vs. clarity, smoothness, warmth, etc. then measuring the difference between modded and un-modded with the appropriate measurement tools is a good start. Blind A/B tests might be faulty if other parts of the audio interface is different. In cases like that, perhaps the audio other interface might be the improvement, not the mod.

So, let's go back to the OP and BLA. Should the OP invest $ into a BLA mod? Depends. Are there issues cropping up that cause unwarranted artifacts in the audio, or smeared transients? Is this an attempt to do a mod based on others' feedback? Does the OP want to improve accuracy of the hardware, or simply make it sound better? For the latter, I'd go down the path of more training and practice in recording/mixing/monitoring before I would go to BLA. Invest in better mics, room, Pre's, plug-ins, monitoring, cabling, etc. first.


If the OP has the best gear he needs and significant training and experience, a mod is not likely the direction I would go unless under a significant budget. The experienced ears, one who has exhausted all other areas of studio building, will demand simply a better audio interface and maybe it's time to upgrade.

here's an interesting take on changing opamps - i have to agree, once you get to a certain slew rate, the ability to hear the difference is next to impossible. that said, other components in the circuit can affect the audible response and influence our perception. http://nwavguy.blogspot.c...-amps-myths-facts.html
 
also - subjective vs objective. http://nwavguy.blogspot.c...-objective-debate.html