Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622

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LittleStudios
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2016/09/09 08:23:36 (permalink)

Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622

Has anyone noticed that the Threshold control is completely mirrored.  For example, as a test because I thought I was losing my mind, I ran a 1000hZ Sine Wave at -6dB through the plugin.  With the Threshold set to 0dB, you would expect to hear nothing, the gate would remain closed.  Well that is not the case, the gate was wide open.  Just the opposite was true when the Threshold was set to -70dB, you would think the gate would be wide open, but it was slammed shut. No sound.  According to the control knob and value displayed by the plugin, the value at which the gate was opening and closing was around -50dB.
 
I contacted Nomad Factory to ask what was up.  I'm not sure if I explained what is happening well as it can be a bit confusing.  I can post a couple screen grabs if it helps.
 
Chris
LittleStudios
post edited by LittleStudios - 2016/09/10 15:09:36

Chris
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    reginaldStjohn
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/09 14:50:46 (permalink)
    I don't think I have used that plug-in but I would agree that it sounds a bit backwards. I are sure there is not some kind of switch or something that would make it behave this way rather than the expected way?

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    #2
    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/09 15:37:07 (permalink)
    I've looked at every setting in the plugin, as well as the manual.  Even after speaking with Nomad Factory's tech support, no luck.  I don't think Nomad Factory or Cakewalk is aware.  Later tonight I'm either going to post screen grabs or post a video to youtube and link it here showing this odd behavior.  If anyone gets a chance and has this plugin, test it out with a known signal and amplitude and let me know what you find.
    post edited by LittleStudios - 2016/09/09 16:57:10

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/10 09:31:56 (permalink)
    ok so apparently I'm too "new" to post a link to my channel or to embed the video.  I will post again and see if I can get enough posts to where it will allow me to put a link.

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/10 09:33:11 (permalink)
    First try, embedding the video:
    Nope that didn't work
    post edited by LittleStudios - 2016/09/10 09:55:46

    Chris
    LittleStudios
    #5
    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/10 09:34:14 (permalink)
    Here's a link to the video on my channel:
    https://youtu.be/EViMzPb5CaA
    It's in 1080p
     
     
    post edited by LittleStudios - 2016/09/10 09:56:28

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    Pragi
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/10 10:09:42 (permalink)
    Yep, 
    I can confirm 
    that theExpander/Gate  is working in an oppsed way than 
    expected. The thresh at - 70 db nearly completely closes the gate .
    On an AD loop it led the kick pass through.
     
    ????  
     
     
    post edited by Pragi - 2016/09/10 11:06:05
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    Kamikaze
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/10 10:28:38 (permalink)
    Yep. Ran it through FX chains to see if one would cause the other to change direction. It didn't.

     
    #8
    Anderton
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/10 10:39:19 (permalink)
    It looks to me like it's a problem with the graphics. I would expect that turning clockwise would raise the threshold, and go more toward zero. If the scaling was reversed so -70 was full CCW and 0 was CW, then I think it would make more sense. Unfortunately there's no "resources" folder with the graphic elements that would allow altering this.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 11:33:40 (permalink)
    Well I contacted the Nomad Factory tech support and gave them links to this forum and to my video on YouTube. Also started a topic on the Nomad Factory forums. We'll see what happens. I do have a question though, let's say Nomad Factory addresses this issue with an update. How do Sonar users who got these plugins bundled with Sonar get the update?

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    Anderton
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 11:58:16 (permalink)
    Well, does it really matter all that much? Usually I make these settings by ear. The control could be uncalibrated and it wouldn't make any significant difference in how I use it.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    pwalpwal
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 12:19:14 (permalink)
    Anderton
    Well, does it really matter all that much? Usually I make these settings by ear. The control could be uncalibrated and it wouldn't make any significant difference in how I use it.


    really??
    it matters because the user feedback is wrong - congratulations on your fantastic ear(s)
    i'd expect nf to fix this

    just a sec

    #12
    Kamikaze
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 12:50:10 (permalink)
    Wow, they sell it for $89
    http://www.nomadfactory.com/products/bt_dynamics/gx622.html
    I think they should fix, it has to be an easy fix to implement too

     
    #13
    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 13:31:47 (permalink)
    I think it's very important that a software's GUI function in a manner that's expected by the End User.  I also think most Software Developers would agree.  This is why countless hours and dollars are put towards developing GUI's. 
     
    Now I agree, working with your ears and listening to how a mix sounds is the most important thing.  I also think having tools that function as intended is important as well.  For example the the Smart Swipe feature in Sonar, imagine on the Mute button that when using the Smart Swipe the Mute button did the opposite function than indicated by the GUI.  While it's still technically usable, personally I would find it annoying.  You could always propose the argument that if it doesn't work the way I like, don't use it.  Fair enough and I agree.  I also think it's helpful to the Developer if Users point out funky glitches in the software.  In the end, it only helps to make a better tool.
     
    All that being said, my original intent was to make sure that I wasn't misunderstanding the function of this plugin because it wasn't clear what was going on with the Threshold control.  Also, if it was malfunctioning, maybe the Developer would like to know and that it would be nice to get an updated version that worked properly.  If that doesn't happen, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
     
     

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    Anderton
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 14:43:35 (permalink)
    pwalpwal
    Anderton
    Well, does it really matter all that much? Usually I make these settings by ear. The control could be uncalibrated and it wouldn't make any significant difference in how I use it.


    really??
    it matters because the user feedback is wrong - congratulations on your fantastic ear(s)
    i'd expect nf to fix this




    I didn't ask whether it should or shouldn't be fixed. I asked whether the calibration really matters or not, and instead I get a snarky answer about my "fantastic ears."
     
    You don't need fantastic ears to tell whether there's signal or silence. You simply adjust the threshold so you can hear the signal you want, and not hear the signal you don't want. A number will not tell you what that threshold is, your ears will.
     
    I agree 100% with LittleStudios' previous post, both that it should be fixed, and that if it doesn't, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 14:49:45 (permalink)
    I hope my response didn't come across snarky. If so I apologize. I tried to respond respectfully.

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    Pragi
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 15:27:48 (permalink)
    LittleStudios
    I hope my response didn't come across snarky. If so I apologize. I tried to respond respectfully.

    I don´t think so,
    but if this gate lets  a kick sometimes at thresh 0 db (-70 db )pass through,
    that´s a bug and has to be fixed.
     
    post edited by Pragi - 2016/09/11 15:48:58
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    Anderton
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/11 16:31:03 (permalink)
    LittleStudios
    I hope my response didn't come across snarky. If so I apologize. I tried to respond respectfully.



    Not at all!!! I probably should have said I agree 100% with all your posts, not just the previous one. You did everything right...
     
    • Asked for a reality check on whether it was indeed a bug
    • When you found out it probably was, alerted the manufacturer
    • Provided free consulting to the company 
    • Updated the forum that you had indeed filed a report (that way others wouldn't have to)
    • Put the whole thing into perspective as a summary
     
    Not sure what you could have done that would have been an improvement.

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    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 07:42:22 (permalink)
    For all those interested, I received an email addressing this issue.  Here's the exact email with the Product Specialists name crossed out for their privacy:
     
    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for the info, your report thread, and video.

    This isn't a bug but, "as designed"!

    The input signal is an approximate dB above the lowered/lower Threshold level. So, this is why you are seeing the control as you say flipped (and granted it is different in repsect of other Gate plug-ins on the market, but...). The Threshold value for gate closing will also fluctuate slightly as you adjust the filters, which adds some harmonics from the tubes emulation algorithm.

    We may change it to the conventional norm when we release updates in the coming months, but these will likely only be done for the full product versions not those bundled with Cakewalk. Stay tuned in newsletters from Plugivery and our partners at DontCrack.com for the latest info, we may offer upgrade pricing (tbd).


    Best regards,

    Xxxxx Xxxxx
    Creative Development | Product Specialist
    ------------------------------------
    NomadFactory
    www.nomadfactory.com

     
    I'm having a hard time believing that this behavior is how the product is designed and intended to be. Furthermore if this is how they designed it, then I'm tapping out. 
     
    It is what it is, time to move on. 
    post edited by LittleStudios - 2016/09/12 18:09:28

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 08:13:08 (permalink)
    Oh, and here's another reply from the Product Specialist on the Plugivery/Nomad Factory forum for all those interested:
     http://forums.plugivery.com/index.php?s=2b69624aad407dc73fe5e8f8c3ec7957&showtopic=142868
     
     
    post edited by LittleStudios - 2016/09/12 08:40:57

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    Anderton
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 12:03:20 (permalink)
    Based on the explanation, it seems that maybe the design is such that unlike standard gates where normally the input level remains the same and the threshold varies, in this case the threshold remains the same, while the input signal is attenuated compared to it. I have no idea if that's the way it's designed, but if so, it would justify the way it's calibrated (although even then, it would be more logical if the control's "sense" was reversed). At least he agrees it's unconventional. It would probably make more sense if the calibration just went from 1 to 10, with "1" meaning less gating or expansion, and "10" meaning more gating or expansion.
     
    This reminds me of the attack control on synthesizers. I consider the attack control as determining how slow the attack is, so turning up the attack control increases the amount of attack time. Right? But I've run into synthesizers where the control sense is reversed. When I asked one designer why, he said that the attack time determines the speed of the attack, so therefore turning it up should make the attack faster and reduce the attack time.

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    Pragi
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 12:25:50 (permalink)
    Before some of you may suspect  that I wonna bash Nomad factory products ,
    I have to admit that I use and like many of there products such as echoes and magnetic 2 a lot.
     
    The gate let´s  at 0db some signals pass through equally to the
    Nomad Brickwall limiter BW 25 which lets at 9 db overload signals pass through.
     
    This is known for some years in different forums and audio books such as
    "Internal mixing" aso.
    regards
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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 12:49:02 (permalink)
    Anderton
    Based on the explanation, it seems that maybe the design is such that unlike standard gates where normally the input level remains the same and the threshold varies, in this case the threshold remains the same, while the input signal is attenuated compared to it. I have no idea if that's the way it's designed, but if so, it would justify the way it's calibrated (although even then, it would be more logical if the control's "sense" was reversed). At least he agrees it's unconventional. It would probably make more sense if the calibration just went from 1 top 10, with "1" meaning less gating or expansion, and "10" meaning more gating or expansion.
     
    This reminds me of the attack control on synthesizers. I consider the attack control as determining how slow the attack is, so turning up the attack control increases the amount of attack time. Right? But I've run into synthesizers where the control sense is reversed. When I asked one designer why, he said that the attack time determines the speed of the attack, so therefore turning it up should make the attack faster and reduce the attack time.

    I know this is sidetracking but from a synthesizer UI POV that is completely ridiculous. Do you remember which synth that was? I've never encountered one that was built that way.

    I do have a compressor that lowers the threshold as you turn the knob clockwise so you get "more compression" (TL Audio Ivory II 5051). Which I also find quirky. They should have labelled the knob "compression" then instead of "threshold".
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    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 12:51:49 (permalink)
    I'm trying to understand the concept you're describing.  So in most gates, you can adjust the threshold and the input level is what it is.  Anything from the input signal that doesn't exceed the threshold is attenuated.  
     
    In the concept you're describing, are you suggesting that in reality the threshold is static and adjusting the threshold parameter is actually attenuating/increasing the input signal???  If not could you further explain?
     
    O.k. this is an interesting concept.  Let's explore it (if this is what you're suggesting).  Going back to my example in the video, if my input signal is a 1kHz sine wave with an amplitude of -12dB.  With this new idea of a threshold parameter, why would setting the threshold to 0dB create a situation that leaves the gate sounding like it's wide open, instead of the conventional sound of it being closed?  Vise versa for the threshold setting of -70dB having the same effect as closing the gate in conventional gates.  To add on top of that, why is the point at which the gate opens and closes at approx. -58dB? I say approx. -58dB because it was difficult to pin down the exact value due to the precision of the control.  What would the internal threshold level have to be to require the input signal to be lowered -58dB to reach the "line" that the gate opens and closes?  
     
    Simple math puts the input signal now at approx. -70dB after applying 58dB of attenuation.  Seeing that the lowest value on the threshold control is -70dB, does this suggest that -70dB is the magic number?  So in other words the input signal is attenuated down the amount displayed in the threshold control until the parts you don't want to hear are below -70dB?  Thus closing the gate for anything under -70dB internally.
     
    Granted this could work, but it is the most unintuitive approach I have ever seen.  If this is the way it works, calling the control the "Threshold" is a misnomer.  It's a bit misleading.
     
    I know I said I'd move on, but this is pretty interesting to me and I'd like to give the developer the benefit of the doubt considering the other plugins in the Blue Tubes Series are wonderful.
     
    Ah well...
     
     
    post edited by LittleStudios - 2016/09/12 15:04:01

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    Anderton
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 15:20:17 (permalink)
    Sanderxpander
    I know this is sidetracking but from a synthesizer UI POV that is completely ridiculous. Do you remember which synth that was? I've never encountered one that was built that way.



    The designer I talked to had one of those boutique synths (analog) at the Superbooth in Frankfurt, many years ago...sorry, I don't recall who made it. I thought maybe he accidentally wired the pot in reverse just before the show  

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    Anderton
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 15:27:48 (permalink)
    LittleStudios
    I'm trying to understand the concept you're describing.  So in most gates, you can adjust the threshold and the input level is what it is.  Anything from the input signal that doesn't exceed the threshold is attenuated.  
     
    In the concept you're describing, are you suggesting that in reality the threshold is static and adjusting the threshold parameter is actually attenuating/increasing the input signal???



    I'm not suggesting it's reality, it's how I interpreted what the engineer said about "The input signal is an approximate dB above the lowered/lower Threshold level." I have no clue if that's how it's designed internally...I just turn the control until I don't hear the things I don't want to hear. I lead a simple life  

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    LittleStudios
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 16:43:18 (permalink)
    It was arrogant of me to assume that because I may not understand the nature of this plugin's Threshold control that it must be a bug or poor design.
     
    Now on the other hand I'd prefer it if the Threshold control behaved more like conventional expander gates.
     
    Ok I feel better 
    post edited by LittleStudios - 2016/09/12 18:10:46

    Chris
    LittleStudios
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    Kev999
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/12 18:34:31 (permalink)
    Anderton
    ...This reminds me of the attack control on synthesizers. I consider the attack control as determining how slow the attack is, so turning up the attack control increases the amount of attack time. Right? But I've run into synthesizers where the control sense is reversed. When I asked one designer why, he said that the attack time determines the speed of the attack, so therefore turning it up should make the attack faster and reduce the attack time.

     
    The SPL Transient Designer works that way. I guess it makes sense in this case because the centre position represents the unaffected signal and turning it "higher" boosts the transients and turning it "lower" reduces them. It still feels wrong to me though.

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/13 05:12:55 (permalink)
    I can understand it from a transient designer or a compressor because they are not quite as standardized as a class, but on a subtractive style synth with traditional ADSRs it's nuts. It's like someone wiring the volume pot in reverse. You can design it any way you want of course but if you're going to do that in an environment where the accepted standard is the opposite you're just going to tick off everyone who wants to use your product.
    #29
    stevesweat
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    Re: Blue Tubes Expander Gate GX622 2016/09/13 08:02:37 (permalink)
    Maybe by "Expander Gate" they meant they are trying to expand your concept of how a gate can work??

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