Helpful ReplyBlues Scale in Jazz

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bayoubill
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2015/03/12 15:56:22 (permalink)

Blues Scale in Jazz

if you already know everything about jazz this Fred is not for you. If you're a blues player, rocker, country picker, etc. and want to sound more jazzier in your lines read on.
 
In my experience in playing and talking to other guitarist I have found many don't know what to practice to get their licks to sound right on jazz tunes. I have something for you that may help.
 
Much jazz is made up of ii7 V7 chords. Ex. Dmin7 - G7
 
Get used to playing the melodic minor scale a minor 3rd apart. Ex. F melodic minor to Ab melodic minor
Dm7b5( F melodic minor) to G7alt ( Ab melodic minor)
 
Don't play the entire scale but just 4 beats of each. Phrases, melodic patterns, etc.
 
take your time and get familiar with the 2 scales. Don't waste time analyzing WHY YOU'RE DOING THIS! DO AS I SAY! 
 
In time if you do the above and add it to what you are already doing you'll fine you have improved your sound and it will be noticed by your band mates.
post edited by bayoubill - 2015/03/16 13:34:52

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dubdisciple
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/12 16:07:37 (permalink)
Thanks. I am still very much a guitar beginner and this helps.
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/12 16:50:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bayoubill 2015/03/12 17:06:31
I thought all you had to do to play Jazz was just hit a bunch of unrelated notes and, if a note sounds particularly bad, then make sure you hit it with emphasis a second time to show that you really did mean to play it the first time!

 
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bayoubill
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/12 17:03:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/03/12 17:13:16
dubdisciple
Thanks. I am still very much a guitar beginner and this helps.



In that case;
 
Dm7b5 = play your favorite G blues lick on this chord then
G7alt = Play your favorite Bb blues lick on this chord
 
Remember short licks 2 or 4 beats each
in the above resolve into a C minor or Major chord
AND
add this info into what you already do and know. It's not meant to replace anything you already do or know
 

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/12 17:05:39 (permalink)
Thanks, Bill. THis is similar to the Eli Kransberg G3 Jazz stuff which has been useful to me for basics although it is written more for piano (thus the improvised voicing translations I was comign up with were screwing things up).
 
sharke provided me with some Mickey Baker stuff which helped me with my chords but sadly I have not been really goign fruther with my jazz studies. I am slamming out some cool stuff based on some very rudimentary concepts I've picked up and supplementing them with my blues/metal/prog knowledge and it sounds great BUT... it ain't true jazz.
 
What I really need to get a handle on are those Maj/min chords and those weird travelling chord steps that land "in between" the 7 modal steps.
 
So yeah... I need to work on jazz "movement". Straight modal stuff is old hat and easy for me but it just ain't real jazz.
 
Cheers.
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/12 17:11:50 (permalink)
bayoubill
dubdisciple
Thanks. I am still very much a guitar beginner and this helps.



In that case;
 
Dm7b5 = play your favorite G blues lick on this chord then
G7alt = Play your favorite Bb blues lick on this chord
 
Remember short licks 2 or 4 beats each
in the above resolve into a C minor or Major chord
AND
add this info into what you already do and know. It's not meant to replace anything you already do or know
 


As my son explores his jazz drumming more I would like to accompany him when he practices so every bit helps. Thanks again.
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bayoubill
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/12 20:02:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/03/13 00:07:14
What I really need to get a handle on are those Maj/min chords and those weird travelling chord steps that land "in between" the 7 modal steps
 
Diminished 7th chords are the in between chords. You can put them in between any 2 chords 
 
Working on chord function and progressions (Changes) can help. Where the bass notes move and progress defines it. Too much time is given to the words or what is written down about this subject and not enough listening to the sound. It's the sound of it that's important. 
'Take the sound of the modes
 
Ex. A minor Dorian - if you pedal an A in the bass and play a C and D triad you get the sound.   Dorian
Any chord diatonic to G major will sound Dorian over a pedal  A or A in the bass note. It's where that bass note takes you next that guides a song. "Where is This going"? is the question and answer. IMHO it takes time to find the sound in writing music. Using preconceived chord progressions always leaves me with "this just ain't right" feeling 
 
Each mode has a sound and easy to find. Let's do the Ionian mode(Tonic)
 Pedal C  ex. (F to G over C bass or any chords diatonic to C major)
 
Phrygian with C in the bass makes it in the key of Ab. Pedal C over Db and Eb or any diatonic chord in Ab for Phrygian. Etc.
 
modal music doesn't move much and if you want something to play when you have a vamp one one chord knowing the above can help
 
 It helps me to simplify and break progressions and changes down to the following;
 
      Sub dominant sound ( minor sounding or major sounding chords that you can repeat and don't necessarily go any where but could) This includes unaltered dom 7 chords 
 
      Dominant sound( chord sounds that just has to move)
 
      Tonic sound( ahhh That's where I want to be for the moment  (( sub dominant))  )
 
Remembering the above
 
Pick a bass note. Say A and you want it to move to a Tonic D major or minor chord. You can greatly increase your chord choices (sounds)by using the following guideline. Any diatonic chord in D Maj or Minor except D Maj  over an A in the bass or any DbM#11/Bm7/Eb7/Gm7b5/A7alt. 
 
Now the interesting thing about this is ALL these are interchangable in function too! 
 
So if you have a Sub dominant sound - Dm7 you could use any of the chords in the key(mode) you are in
Dm7 is FM7#11 is Bm7b5 is G7(13) is Db7alt without the root
 
Dominant Sound - in C Maj   G in the bass - any of the chords in the key(mode) except C chord
BM7#11 is Abm7/ is Db7(13) is Fm7b5 is G7alt
 
Tonic Sound - C in the bass  CM7#11 is Am7(13) is D7 is Gbm7b5 is Ab7alt
 
 
    Holy Moly
 
If you are just jesting me then forget all the above
If not this will keep you going for a while and plenty to USE
Me thinking has so much made me hungry. I Am going to make a pizza!
 
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by bayoubill - 2015/03/12 21:21:47

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/12 20:14:34 (permalink)
I jest you not and will give it all a thorough scouring in the morning with fresh eyes. It is appreciated and I thank you.
 
As I said I kind of understand the general basics and can "fake" my way into sounding jazzy but it is obviously a very broad and subjective topic. Any time I Am tossed a bit of juicy jazz theory to sink my teeth into I always end up with a couple new tricks to pull out of my arse so I'm sure this will be useful.
 
Cheers.
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/12 21:59:22 (permalink)
Who replaced our usual Bill with Professor Bill???
 
Wow! 

 
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 01:11:51 (permalink)
The best way to learn jazz is to listen to it. Lots and lots and lots of it until the feel and flow of it is coming out of your ears. The feel is crucial. A jazz player can play a major arpeggio and make it sound like jazz. It's very important to get the feel down from the get go. I think where a lot of people go wrong is in learning the chords and the scales and playing simple runs from books, without putting the feel and the timing into it. Without the swing, those exercises are not going to feel much like jazz and it's easy to get discouraged. 


Listen to the likes of Django Reinhardt and Wes Montgomery until you can hear those lines endlessly in your head. If you can whistle jazz then you're halfway to being able to play it. Simply a matter of learning how to play what you hear in your head. If you can do that, you don't even need the theory so much, although theory always helps you get ideas down on paper and communicate those ideas to other musicians. 
 
If you're up for tacking some of Django Reinhardt's solos then you can find some free transcriptions here: https://sites.google.com/site/klemjc/
 
The funny thing is I found these recently and realized that they were done by a guy who was one of my best friends when we were 10 or so. Drifted apart after that and then lost touch with him, turns out he's a music teacher at Skidmore now and is one of the world's biggest authorities on the music of Reinhardt and has written a book on his playing. It's a small world indeed. 

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 01:39:23 (permalink)
Everything Sharke said!
 
 
This is for guitarist without the background in jazz. I didn't mean to get into the theory too much but I was addressing Beepster. Everything I said is not a one week, month, or year endeavor but a concept to use for a chord or lick application. As I said not to analyze but to use. It's quick and I learned it from some of the best jazzers on the planet. Playing melodic minor licks a minor 3rd apart is a very jazzy sound and lends itself very well to a ii7-V7 bebop sound. The point is to use what you already do to apply it to jazz
Dm7b5 (Dm7) = play your favorite G blues lick on this chord then

G7alt = Play your favorite Bb blues lick on this chord

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 01:42:48 (permalink)
I supposed you're on to something Bill!
(In theory anyway...)

 
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bayoubill
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 02:09:07 (permalink)
A hardcore blues band I played with a couple of weeks ago was jammin on standard blues songs when a jazz bassist came in that knew the vocalist. He wanted to do a funk version of the tune Here's That Rainy Day. As the solos went around the guitar players just got lost or tried to force blues lines and they sounded pretty bad. At the break there were questions about how I played the changes. I passed what I told them here.
 
post edited by bayoubill - 2015/03/13 03:03:19

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 11:51:18 (permalink)
Good stuff Professor!!!
A lot of that stuff was waay over my head, but I'm still learning and will bookmark this page. I'm lost in theory.....AM just a lazy improvisor that jams to the chord progression and song groove.....whatever it may be.

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 12:18:27 (permalink)
A Jazz buddy of mine,told me, upon hearing some strangeness of sounds emanating from group he was playing in, told me that "jazzers will play outside the chords"

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 12:40:14 (permalink)
Now this is going to sound dumb for someone who claims to know theory but it is something that I think is crucial to understanding what you are talking about and something that has never really sunk in with me (because I am not traditionally trained).
 
When you use the term "pedal" I assume you are referring to "pedal point". Could you expand on that and explain it to me like a child? I know it is likely a simple concept but the term seems to get used a lot without explanation in much of the material I've studied. I know (think) it's some kind of revolving point for progressions but the precise function and definition eludes me.
 
Also the Alt chord concept kind of weirds me out. What is the step construction of an Alt chord? I seem to recall that being a chord to use travelling between a specific point and that a "melodic minor" mixolydian mode works well over it (I am scrounging that from memory though and it has been a while... I have it writtten down somewhere). Point is since it is in between chord steps I'm just wondering how it is constructed and what it is constructed from.
 
Sorry if that is totally wrong or stupid. This is quite interesting. Thanks.
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 12:48:58 (permalink)
In jazz and jazz harmony, the term altered chord, notated as an alt chord (e.g. G7alt), refers to a dominant chord, "in which neither the fifth nor the ninth appears unaltered". – namely, where the 5th and the 9th are raised or lowered by a single semitone, or omitted.

 
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 12:57:40 (permalink)
Alt chords are good for resolving to the major or minor a fourth above, eg G7#5 to Cmaj7. The #5 in this case, D#, passes nicely to the 3rd of the Cmaj7, E.

I think you can also use them before a minor chord a step lower, although I'll probably have to consult Ted Greene later, lol.

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 15:18:57 (permalink)
I hope all the input isn't too hard to follow. Great info here but if you don't understand parts of it don't worry. My other Fred about poor man's chord guide worked it's way here so I'll keep everything consolidated. 
 
What I want to say right now is what Sharke touched on and that's listening. There was a tune that I worked on for a year and about 3 months in my younger days that opened up the guitar neck for me. I played in a great Big Band then and I found a wonderful tune to work on. It was the first tune that didn't have guitar in and at first was hard to translate to the neck. There wasn't any other guitar players so I couldn't pick their brains about it. Turns out that was a good thing because I wasn't limited to the "rules" of how the properly play guitar. The song is Tenor Madness. Please take a focused listen to this song. It's got a little bit of everything in it. Just listen
 
 

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 15:36:04 (permalink)
On my second listen now. 

 
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/13 15:57:16 (permalink)
Just think, if you had a recording of this you could pick out say a 4 bar phrase of it in Sonar and split it save it and have it to concentrate on. Slow it down and listen. Over and over  ... we can dream.... Just thinking
 
BEEPSTER - a pedal is a bass note that rings out below any of the notes being played 
                 Example - playing a open E bass string on the guitar and playing chords with the E is ringing at the same time
   
post edited by bayoubill - 2015/03/14 22:01:35

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/14 17:27:32 (permalink)
3 Note Chords and the Charleston Rhythm
(if you already know jazz don't participate in this Fred!) 
 
I found thru much complaining from the horn section,experience, etc. that my chord voicing' s in the jazz context was not the proper sound. My background in Hendrix, ZZ Top, and Deep Purple just didn't sound right with the sax/trombone/ or trumpet sections
I learned 3 note chords sounded best. What follows will lead to using your best blues licks on jazz changes 
 
 

Record the above changes in Sonar with your guitar at about 92 bpm. Make sure no other notes are sounded other than shown. You can play just the Dm7 to G7 and loop it  or play the Dm7 To G7 and resolve to the CM7 if you want. It will benefit you to practice these chords if you don't use them. COPY THIS PHOTO IF NEED FOR REFERENCE
 Have fun !
 
P.S> You don't need to record any thing else with this. Just your guitar
 
BEEPSTER - an Example of a pedal tone can be heard in this song 2nd break
 Example
post edited by bayoubill - 2015/03/15 17:38:20

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/14 19:29:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/03/15 18:04:10
3 note voicings on guitar are very useful, I think they came out of the Big Band era. I found it very useful to learn all fingerings of the standard chords (maj, min, 6th, maj7, min7, dom7) in each inversion on the low E, D and G strings. You can get so much mileage out of these and I find myself using them in all styles of playing. 

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/14 19:49:33 (permalink)
Now let's start getting to what this Fred is intended for:
 
Pick up your guitar and play a 2 bar blues lick in A. Think an A blues lick. Keep playing till you got a good sounding one you're happy with. Or you could just play your favorite lick in A blues. Get it under your fingers
 
 Now put down your guitar and pull up that 3 note Dm7 to G7 clip you did in Sonar. Play your blues lick. Listen to the SOUND with the changes. 
 
next vary the rhythm of the lick with the changes.
next play another blues lick.  vary the rhythm    
 
Listen to the sound . No need to analyze anything. Just play and listen. Record it with the changes and listen without playing. Stay with A blues that you know but keep it A Blues. I will introduce that A blues to other jazz changes later

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/15 12:40:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2015/03/15 18:13:29
If there is anyone needing or using this Fred let me know and I will keep adding to the info. If not I hope what has been written above has helped someone. If you want to hear what 3 note chords sound like in a musical context click on SONGS link below and listen to Autumn Leaves. It's full of 3 note chords
 
P.S. I must mention I had to play Autumn Leaves in Am ...........   we all know why 
post edited by bayoubill - 2015/03/15 17:10:26

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/15 13:00:31 (permalink)
Yes, thanks Bill!
I think it is interesting.
I play some Jazz, but I learned all the chord arpeggio's and I play them along with the chord changes.
Sometimes I use octotonic scales or wholetone scales on the V.
I realise I never studied the alt scale, (the transposed melodic minor).
So that what I will begin to do.
 
 

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/15 13:50:05 (permalink)
Good stuff, Bill.

As a music major in college many years ago I remember reluctantly playing in the jazz band and since I only knew blues and rock licks I remember some very strange looks from the other musicians.

I learned a few things:

I eliminated bar chords and open chords.
Jazz chords, as you know, have completely different fingering positions and in many cases eliminate the first and second guitar strings altogether.

Once I learned jazz chording it was much easier for me to think and perform jazz solos.

Also I remember being told to think outside the box. For instance, soloing in a Bb major scale as the band played in a different key altogether. Or soloing in a different time signature.
 
Keep the thread going Bill;  maybe one day jazz will actually be popular.     :)

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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/15 14:06:14 (permalink)
I will introduce the Altered Scale sound as it relates to our A blues scale then.
The Dominant 7 Altered chord is a chord with a root, 3rd, and flatted 7th  flatted 7th meaning it's a note 2 frets below the root (chord name) normally above it an octave and altered notes and all the extensions above that altered including the 5th
Chord tones are the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and b7( lower case b is used to show a note on the guitar lowered 1 fret) of the scale.   An Altered dominant 7th chord is always a movement to the I chord (V7 function) away in a progression because it doesn't sound good repeated or sustained very long. It has to go somewhere. It's a Dominant sound 
(An exception to this is the 7#9 chord sometimes called the Hendrix chord)
 
Chord tones - 1 is root (2, same as 9th)  3 (4,same note as the 11)  5  (6,same as the 13)  7th  8(octave) 9 10(same as 3rd)   11 ( 12 same as 5th)  13 (same as 7th) 14(octave) 
 

 
 
 
                      
post edited by bayoubill - 2015/03/15 15:18:08

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bayoubill
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/15 14:42:53 (permalink)
The Altered Dominant 7th Sound Using the Blues Scale
If you already know jazz theory this Fred is not for you
 
We played our A blues lick over the Dm7 to G7 to CMaj7 with the Charleston rhythm and checked out the sound with the help of Sonar. (you could have vamped the Dm7 to G7 only)
 
Now let's get jazzy!
 
Play an A blues lick 4 beats then repeat that lick one fret up for 4 beats then move it up another fret 4 beats. You don't have to play it exactly the same each time. Play the lick , move up one fret , play the lick . move up one fret
 
What you have now is one bar A blues/ one bar Bb blues/ one bar B blues
 
Get it under your fingers
 
 
Now play it with the Dm7 to G7 to CMaj7 clip and LISTEN to the sound
 
Record what you play and listen to it. Then play and record it again and listen
 
 
 
post edited by bayoubill - 2015/03/15 17:40:28

SWAMP MUSIC
Sonar PLATINUM        
Studio Cat DAW
 
 
      
  
 
#29
Beepster
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Re: beginning JAZZ for guitarist 2015/03/15 16:22:10 (permalink)
I have been somewhat preoccupied with various other mayhem, Bill but I will indeed be bookmarking and slamming away at the material you have posted here (and anything else that is forthcoming) when I get the chance. I thank you for sharing and making the effort. I'm sure many others (including many lurkers) will make use of these lessons and really it is always nice to create an intertube archive of personal knowledge like this for others to learn from and enjoy. It balances out all the poop jokes and pr0n out there on the world wide wooblywobs.
 
Cheers.
#30
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