Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 17:44:24
(permalink)
Thanks Rain for that link. I think it might be a good investment. It is an area that is becoming more and more important. I mean it is one thing to produce a great sounding master using EQ compression and limiting and all but then one often has to turn around and present these tracks in another format such as MP3 and it can be tricky sometimes to know what best to do in order to create a great final sounding result in that format as well. It is not necessarily just a matter of converting your great sounding wave file master into an MP3 file either. I think some careful prep is required first. Looks like that book could be useful and it is also written by someone who knows a lot about mastering too.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 17:59:34
(permalink)
Before spending money on a book, you might start with reading Apples Mastered for iTunes guidelines: http://images.apple.com/itunes/mastered-for-itunes/docs/mastered_for_itunes.pdf I think you might find that there's less rocket science here and more really basic obvious common sense (like "don't clip"). In fact in some more technical circles it's considered kind of a joke that Apple felt they actually needed to tell this kind of stuff to mastering engineers.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 18:17:02
(permalink)
Isn't part of the discussion about "mastering" for "iTunes" based on the fact that you do not get to make any decisions about the mp3 compression. You only get to guess what iTunes is going to do to your hi res master. I agree it's not rocket science... but it also seems a lot harder than it could be. There is also the issue of tagging. If you are 'mastering" for CD then tagging, to the limited extent of Redbook specs is part of the job. When "mastering" for iTunes you are pretty much left out of the loop for advanced tagging and that is an area where an artist has an interest. Tagging info that can be used to more effectively connect artists with fans is being under utilized. There may be a reason that "mastering" for iTunes discussions seem more complicated than explanations about mastering for mp3. Random thoughts. best regards, mike
|
Jonbouy
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 22562
- Joined: 2008/04/14 13:47:39
- Location: England's Sunshine South Coast
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:07:23
(permalink)
I'm thinking those guidelines supplied by Drew and a sufficient knowledge already gained in producing a good mix will save you the price of another Bob Katz book. It isn't complicated at all, tags are not complicated, destination formats are not complicated if you know already what is required to produce final output for that format. You'll notice if you read the guidlines that mp3's are old hat and Apple have been moving toward embracing higher quality and lossless file formats, with AAC being their format of choice for a good while now. Needing to make any decisions about the mp3 compression has never been an issue because it's dependent on the encoder and one mp3 encoder is normally as bad as any other. The best decision to make about mp3's is not to use them. Tagging for iTunes offers more scope as well if you read the guidlines and see the way music is presented both on-line and off-line and I think you'll find that tagging is by no means under-utilized by artist or followers alike. You might realize that much Mike when you start streaming some stuff instead of clinging to the idea that a static download on a web-server is still the best way forward as far as connecting with an audience goes... It isn't rocket science to read instructions, it's what you do when you supply media to anyone that wants it in order give 'em what they are asking for. Mystery and complication is usually introduced to make things seem insurmountably difficult often when somebody is trying to sell books at $30 a pop or because they like engaging in windy debates, the rest of us can just happily do what's required as laid out. Good ol' Bob comes from a time when specialist skills and equipment were essential in providing quality output, these days none of it is beyond the ken of your average savvy singer songwriter. I can't blame him for writing a book though as many people like to sanctify things by making them seem more difficult, even to themselves, there's still some financial mileage to be had out of that.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/12/04 19:20:01
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:19:23
(permalink)
Ok, you don't get to make any decision about the AAC compression. It's all out of your hands. They decide what your bitrate and you get to wait to find out if something turned in to mud in the process. iTunes just does basic tagging for you... and once it's done if a mistake was made the entire song needs to be eradicated and you need to re submit as a new song. So, I guess it should be obvious that you want to do it all right the first time. Good iTimes. best regards, mike
|
John T
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6783
- Joined: 2006/06/12 10:24:39
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:22:10
(permalink)
This is one of those things where you can either get with the programme and do the best work you can for the distribution platforms that actually exist, or you can obstinately decide to suck at working with the distribution platforms that actually exist. It's nothing new. There are loads of old guys you've never heard of who thought it was beneath them to make stuff sound good on cassette.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
|
Jonbouy
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 22562
- Joined: 2008/04/14 13:47:39
- Location: England's Sunshine South Coast
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:23:27
(permalink)
mike_mccue Ok, you don't get to make any decision about the AAC compression. It's all out of your hands. They decide what your bitrate and you get to wait to find out if something turned in to mud in the process. iTunes just does basic tagging for you... and once it's done if a mistake was made the entire song needs to be eradicated and you need to re submit as a new song. So, I guess it should be obvious that you want to do it all right the first time. Good iTimes. best regards, mike You don't get a choice what a radio station does with their compressors when you've given them professionally engineered masters either. It's true if you are supplying media to anyone, send a magazine a photo according to their spec it doesn't mean they are not going to mess up the repro. We can only do OUR best. btw AAC is lossless AFAIK...
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/12/04 19:25:08
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
|
John T
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6783
- Joined: 2006/06/12 10:24:39
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:26:13
(permalink)
I'm totally with Dave Pensado on this. His exact words: "Get off your lazy ass and figure out how to work with what you've got instead of complaining about it".
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
|
John T
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6783
- Joined: 2006/06/12 10:24:39
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:27:06
(permalink)
Fact is, whatever misgivings people might have about compressed formats, that's how music is being delivered. And it can be done well or badly. I'm interested in doing it well.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
|
John T
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6783
- Joined: 2006/06/12 10:24:39
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:33:12
(permalink)
As a tangential point, people *in general* are listening to the best audio quality they've ever listened to. Audiophile turntables and amps were always a niche thing. Pre-mp3, people were listening to music on off-brand Walkman clones and crackly nasty supermarket all-in-one turntable 'n' tape deck combos. Cheap headphones are better than they've ever been. The frequency range of even mid-grade mp3 is way, way higher than tape was. And so on. The idea that we've entered some dark age of low-quality listening equipment is nonsense.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
|
Jonbouy
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 22562
- Joined: 2008/04/14 13:47:39
- Location: England's Sunshine South Coast
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:34:09
(permalink)
I'm not entirely sure on the tagging issue Mike but a quick glance at how the iTunes setup seems to work from my daughters iPod any suppoting material is related to a unique ID tag which can be updated independently to the file itself. I'd get Bob's book if I were you and catch up on what's current. I think I'll pass on it though.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 19:38:36
(permalink)
I think today's mp3 tagging is far superior to the cassette tagging I grew up with.
|
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 22:26:36
(permalink)
I guess one of the points I wanted to make was what the whole Mastered for iTunes thing is about. Many seem to think it's about remastering something to compensate for the destination format. But just read the Apple documentation on it and ask yourself, "Is this to address problems with the codec or is it to address problems with the people who are supplying us with content?".
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
|
Jonbouy
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 22562
- Joined: 2008/04/14 13:47:39
- Location: England's Sunshine South Coast
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/04 23:15:54
(permalink)
Undoubtedly the latter. They are mostly trying to address the problems of content supplied by people who frequent forums and take their guidance from the conflicting opinions found there. Good for Apple for making it as bullet-proof simple as it can be in this case. It's a guideline, doubtless there will be reams of hot air expounded over its virtue or otherwise hopefully though people will just follow the plain simple common-sense contained in it. ( Then I can make MY stuff LOUDER and have more BASS than anyone elses...  )
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/12/04 23:26:43
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
|
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 01:08:30
(permalink)
Honestly guys, I don't know. A mastering engineer said it was worth a read. Personally, I've given up on the idea of learning the art mastering in this life. I'll leave that to a pro when we get there. Hopefully he'll be up to speed w/ iTunes. Songwriting, engineering, mixing - or even just improving my chops as a guitar player is enough to keep me busy for as long as I can imagine. I'd pick up sumi-e painting before mastering. Until then, if I ever get to the point of sharing our work w/ you guys, I'll stick to a bit of limiting...
post edited by Rain - 2012/12/05 01:10:28
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 02:09:28
(permalink)
OK, I'll give you the free version based on Amazon's synopsis: Topics covered include: • Contrasting the production of CD albums with iTunes albums - Don't know about this one. Maybe this will cover tracks vs. albums? Or just old vs. new? • High Resolution audio - He'll talk about bit depth, sampling rates, etc. • Dithering - He'll explain dithering, and he'll almost certainly get it right (unlike many explanations you might read elsewhere). But I will be happy to either point you to a reasonable reference or explain it in excruciating detail if you'd like. • Distortion (and how to avoid it) - Maybe this is about clipping? Or maybe about how other processing (overcompressing) distorts audio? • Lossy Coding - He'll give an overview of how lossy codecs work. I don't know how detailed it will be, but I suspect he will get it right, as (unlike many writers) he tends to do his due diligence for things like this. • Loudness Metering - Jeff will be happy to explain K-system to you for free. In fact, he will be unable to resist explaining it to anyone willing to listen. • Sound Check and how it affects our production techniques - Overcompression is even dumber (if that were possible) when your audience's iTunes player is going to automatically turn down overcompressed audio anyway - effectively undoing the loudness "benefit" you got from all that compression, but leaving all the horrible detriments intact. • Apple’s tools for Mastered for iTunes - What Apple's tools are and how to use them. Because Apple's stuff is always so incredibly hard to figure out on your own. Foreword by renowned mastering engineer Bob Ludwig. - Sorry, you'll have to pay for this part. Now don't get me wrong. Katz is a good writer and a good guy who bothers to get the technical theory type stuff correct (as opposed to the mastering/engineering stuff that you'd just expect someone like him to have expertise in). His Mastering Audio: The Art and the Science is a great book that everyone should read. I sure it's actually a very good book. The point is that there just really isn't much to Apple's Mastered for iTunes initiative. It's just a bunch of very basic common sense guidelines and some new tools. I just can't imagine it's worth buying a $30 book on it, particularly when a lot of the information is probably the same as Katz' mastering book already.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
|
SongCraft
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3902
- Joined: 2007/09/19 17:54:46
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 07:13:10
(permalink)
Why focused 'only' on iTunes?,.. for example; album and single releases are handled by 'a' distributor; those very same tracks are all distributed to hundreds of other music sites worldwide. Some of those sites also sell CD's. So no matter the target (retailer) the final master has to be very well done -- but I suppose this book may have some new tricks up it's sleeve.
|
Danny Danzi
Moderator
- Total Posts : 5810
- Joined: 2006/10/05 13:42:39
- Location: DanziLand, NJ
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 10:31:00
(permalink)
I too don't think you need this book, Rain. The key to beating this mp3 monster is to read up on what each digital download company expects. If they allow a wave file to be uploaded so it can be converted by them, your best bet is to totally avoid any loudness wars with limiting and keep the master file at -0.3 at all times. You shouldn't get any clipping and your mp3 conversion or whatever they use should be good also. The only time you may notice something is when a song is long which may force a lower encoding. If the mainstream encoding turns out to be something around 160 kb or under, you're doomed with a long song no matter what you do. As long as it's 192 kb or above, you should just about always be in good shape. Keep volumes sane, watch your limiting and you should be in good shape. Some guys export their mastered mp3 right from a project. I don't condone doing it this way because if you are at 24/48 and are going to export a 16/44 mp3 out, once it converts, the levels you had for 24/48 will not be the same for 16/44. So if you are exporting a 24/48 out of your DAW that will be converted to 16/44 mp3, the overall level is going to be different and if you're mixing pretty hot already, by the time you go to 16/44 mp3, you'll be clipping if you used the same output level. So you have to be careful here. I have plugs that allow me to monitor what a file will look and sound like at 16/44 even though I'm at 24/48. This also shows me where my overs will be because once you convert to 44.1 and dither, you're going to lose that headroom. If I see a reading of -0.3 in my project at 24/48 while using my limiter, rest assured if I export, dither and convert my sample rate, I'll be clipping when I listen to that 16/44 file. This is what you don't want in an mp3 situation....or any situation actually. Loudness eliminated, a great mix and easy on the limiter are the best ways to beat this animal in any format. If you get a record deal, it's one less thing you need to worry about. But for the stuff that's for your head or whatever, you should be able to get great results without a book. There's no real science to this in my opinion. Garbage in, more garbage out due to encoding artifacts. Add loudness and excessive limiting on top of it...and man, you're in for a horrible sounding song. That's been my experience. Even my 128 kb tunes sound pretty good to my ears. Of course I prefer 192 and above because I honestly can't tell a difference between them and a 16/44 wave file unless I really listen close for every little detail part at a time over and over. If you can't tell a difference on something after listening 3 times, it's not worth forming an opinion on it really. So keep some of this in mind brother...it works for me all the time. :) -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/12/05 10:40:00
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
|
Bub
Max Output Level: -3.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7196
- Joined: 2010/10/25 10:22:13
- Location: Sneaking up behind you!
- Status: offline
|
Starise
Max Output Level: -0.3 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7563
- Joined: 2007/04/07 17:23:02
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 10:58:45
(permalink)
SongCraft Why focused 'only' on iTunes?,.. for example; album and single releases are handled by 'a' distributor; those very same tracks are all distributed to hundreds of other music sites worldwide. Some of those sites also sell CD's. So no matter the target (retailer) the final master has to be very well done -- but I suppose this book may have some new tricks up it's sleeve. I just read the article on this in Mix magazine. My take on it is that Apple have found themselves yet another ingenious way to market their Itunes.vs other brands. And from all accounts the competition is gearing up to kick it seriously. Apple can brag that their "standards" are better,that you are getting the most bang for your buck by using itunes compared to the others. I commend them for at least coming up with a standard for improvement on a product, how much of an improvement it is remains negligible.Cracking down on what is acceptable will push standards up, but any of the competion can do the same thing and mp3 at 256 is still an mp3 at 256 or an AAC mp4 is still what it is.Any of the others can institute similar standards and get the same results. Unless I'm missing something here(and I could be),this is primarily aimed at getting and keeping the customer in a wider playing field and giving a potential artist/uploader at least the perception that Apple is better.
Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, , 3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface. CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 www.soundcloud.com/starise Twitter @Rodein
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 11:04:30
(permalink)
i hate the sound of streaming audio. i would much rather listen to silence, than endure a length of song or album that sounds like @ss. that said, i have not heard any version of a higher-rate mp3 or lossy file, that sounds any better 'audio wise' than what i can do with wavelab outputting mp3 at 320kbps. just haven't heard it. so, if ANYBODY can point me to a file, that has better audio quality than any other similarly-created compressed audio file, i'm waiting to hear it.
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 11:07:37
(permalink)
just for the record, my method: mix at 24 bit/44.1 khz. output 24 bit file to wavelab. apply magic fairy dust ala Waves plugins and a few secret sauces. dither to 16 bit. THEN, create (2) output files: 16 bit redbook format wav, and mp3 at 320kbps.
|
Bub
Max Output Level: -3.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7196
- Joined: 2010/10/25 10:22:13
- Location: Sneaking up behind you!
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 12:01:11
(permalink)
batsbrew just for the record, my method: mix at 24 bit/44.1 khz. output 24 bit file to wavelab. apply magic fairy dust ala Waves plugins and a few secret sauces. dither to 16 bit. THEN, create (2) output files: 16 bit redbook format wav, and mp3 at 320kbps. I've been doing all my projects 96/32. I export my final master to 96/32 and create a 320/48kHz MP3 from it. No dithering. It's rare that I even make a CD any more so I don't even waste the space with a 16bit file, 32bit one for that matter. I stopped listening to the wav files and just listen to MP3's. When I need a 16bit master, I go back and do it from the project. I keep my masters a bit lower than Danny. I stopped looking at that number to be honest, and I think my masters have been coming out a lot better. There's a little meter thing-a-ma-bob on Melda's limiter that I use now. I keep it hovering in the middle of the scale and my masters end up around the -2.5 ~ -0.5 range which is fine for me. Depending on the material and how much compression I used, some sound much louder than others anyway, even at -2.5db.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 12:19:08
(permalink)
i like the idea of mastering to a ceiling of -0.3 i've historically taken it to -0.2...... but danny makes a good point about trying to hit a number that works across the board for ALL formats. i did a study of my own, of a bunch of 'louder' modern pro mixes, about a year ago, and almost all of them were at -0.1. but that's specifically for CD's, and by now most cd players and DVD players SHOULD be able to handle that level without the convertors crapping out. i just prefer to use 44.1 and 16 bit, as a final output, because it's the lowest common denominator. and at the point, even tho i prefer wavelab, ANY encoder will work with a 16 bit redbook wav file, so it's a common method of delivery.
|
Danny Danzi
Moderator
- Total Posts : 5810
- Joined: 2006/10/05 13:42:39
- Location: DanziLand, NJ
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 12:21:46
(permalink)
batsbrew i hate the sound of streaming audio. i would much rather listen to silence, than endure a length of song or album that sounds like @ss. that said, i have not heard any version of a higher-rate mp3 or lossy file, that sounds any better 'audio wise' than what i can do with wavelab outputting mp3 at 320kbps. just haven't heard it. so, if ANYBODY can point me to a file, that has better audio quality than any other similarly-created compressed audio file, i'm waiting to hear it. Right, and I too am with you on that. However, when you upload to one of these digital distribution places, that beautiful 320 you created *MAY* get smashed down to something else. It may end up 160 or 192. This is the problem at hand. Imagine an mp3 OF an mp3. LOL! This is why some of that stuff sounds so bad. We have to upload in the highest format allowed by the company and sometimes you may even need to compensate once you find out what their format is. For example, you lose a little high end from a 160 kb mp3 if that's what their final conversion will be. So on your end, you may want to mix in a little extra high end to compensate. If the company someone goes with for digital downloads honors 320 kb mp3's, we're all golden. The problem there is, I can't remember ever downloading a 320 from anywhere. Most are 128 that I see. Like for example, my cover band shares a drop box folder. When we have to learn a new song, one of my guys grabs something from iTunes. They all seem to come in at 128. Now, the company that puts everyone into the digital download stores, TuneCore, allows for 16/44 wave to be uploaded. However, they do not mention "what" happens after that wave file leaves you and gets converted. The don't mention any final kb sizes nor do they tell you if you are given choices to select which mp3 option you'd like to use. So that's a bit scary. I emailed them to find out because I'm actually curious about this and I just got a client today that wants to put the stuff I'll be mastering for him on iTunes and all those other stores you can get into using TuneCore. This thread actually comes at a good time for me. LOL :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
|
Danny Danzi
Moderator
- Total Posts : 5810
- Joined: 2006/10/05 13:42:39
- Location: DanziLand, NJ
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 12:31:24
(permalink)
Bub batsbrew just for the record, my method: mix at 24 bit/44.1 khz. output 24 bit file to wavelab. apply magic fairy dust ala Waves plugins and a few secret sauces. dither to 16 bit. THEN, create (2) output files: 16 bit redbook format wav, and mp3 at 320kbps. I've been doing all my projects 96/32. I export my final master to 96/32 and create a 320/48kHz MP3 from it. No dithering. It's rare that I even make a CD any more so I don't even waste the space with a 16bit file, 32bit one for that matter. I stopped listening to the wav files and just listen to MP3's. When I need a 16bit master, I go back and do it from the project. I keep my masters a bit lower than Danny. I stopped looking at that number to be honest, and I think my masters have been coming out a lot better. There's a little meter thing-a-ma-bob on Melda's limiter that I use now. I keep it hovering in the middle of the scale and my masters end up around the -2.5 ~ -0.5 range which is fine for me. Depending on the material and how much compression I used, some sound much louder than others anyway, even at -2.5db. Bub, that's actually smart you go lower than -0.3. That number is what you might want to consider if you were doing some sort of modern rock or metal where you're trying to make things loud for impact etc. But for sure, anything that doesn't fall into those genre's, I'd have it lower also. For the stuff you do that I've heard which is really clean, you'd do yourself an injustice going any hotter than you are. If you start losing that clean sound that I've come to enjoy by you, I'm, coming after you. LOL! (j/k) It ain't easy making things that clean....I commend thee! :) Bats: I dunno man, something about that WaveLab encoder for me too. Nothing else I've tried does what that thing does. I wish I knew what it was but I can literally tell a difference with other encoders on the stuff I do here. I'd say that thing in WaveLab is the best mp3 encoder I've ever used hands down. It's probably all in my head though. LOL! But I swear I always hear something better when I use that WL encoder. -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
|
yorolpal
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13829
- Joined: 2003/11/20 11:50:37
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 12:37:43
(permalink)
As is often the case my ol pal JT cuts right to the chase on two points. One...there's no use in remaining an obstinate ludite tilting at windmills that have long since fallen down and Two...the "myth" that folks used to listen to "pristine audio" back in the good ol days is just that. By and large most folks (read younguns) have always listened to the lowest common denominator of available audio formats. At least with today's lossless formats...it ain't too shabby.
|
Bub
Max Output Level: -3.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7196
- Joined: 2010/10/25 10:22:13
- Location: Sneaking up behind you!
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 12:55:39
(permalink)
Danny Danzi Bub, that's actually smart you go lower than -0.3. That number is what you might want to consider if you were doing some sort of modern rock or metal where you're trying to make things loud for impact etc. But for sure, anything that doesn't fall into those genre's, I'd have it lower also. For the stuff you do that I've heard which is really clean, you'd do yourself an injustice going any hotter than you are. If you start losing that clean sound that I've come to enjoy by you, I'm, coming after you. LOL! (j/k) It ain't easy making things that clean....I commend thee! :) -Danny Thanks! :) I wouldn't be too hard to find actually ... it's not like Peculiar Missouri is all that big. :) I really struggled with getting my masters up around that -3 ~ 0db. Then I said to myself, I'm spending so much time doing this, and nobody can really hear the difference between a couple db when they're bouncing down the road listing to the CD anyway ... I just go strictly by that meter now in the Melda Limiter and it's served me well. For being free, that Melda Suite is frickin' sweet. :)
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
|
Starise
Max Output Level: -0.3 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7563
- Joined: 2007/04/07 17:23:02
- Status: offline
Re:Bob Katz on Mastering for iTunes
2012/12/05 12:56:18
(permalink)
Stupid question- If I add highs of the same frequency to a mix because they are trunciated in the copy why wouldn't they also be trunciated? Will more db in that range offset the characteristics of the conversion?
Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, , 3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface. CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 www.soundcloud.com/starise Twitter @Rodein
|