dxp
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Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
I was doing a test last night of converting MIDI to AUDIO so I could apply the audio plugins to the drums. I have EZDrummer inserted as soft synth. Put some loops in a MIDI track. Playback was as expected. Sounded very good. Next step was to run CAL - split notes to tracks. Playback of split notes thru EZDrummer was still very good. No change from before running CAL. Then I took the KICK MIDI track from the CAL split and bounced it to an audio track. The results I got at that point were disappointing, to say the least. The overall volume level was way low and the sound of the kick was no where close to what it was in the MIDI track. What I did: So I went back and made sure the track levels on the bounce were set up higher. I set the audio output track for the MIDI track to 0 db. During the bounce to track I used the default settings for the most part other than trying the bounce to stereo and also trying mono. No difference in quality. I also used 'TRACK' as my selection during the bounce. Anyone else experience this change in sound quality when bouncing to track? Any suggestions what else I might try to improve this? Thanks Dave
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 08:58:22
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What soundcard are you using?
I seem to recall that with factory cards the windows mixer can control the levels of bounce and audio input.
check that.
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dxp
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 09:08:39
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using PreSonas FireStudio Any windows soundcards are disabled so it wouldn't seem like the windows mixer could be causing it eh? As much perplexed by the was the sound of the kick drum changed after the bounce. Sounded nothing like the MIDI version. No PC modules were in use. I don't do a lot of bounce to track stuff so I'm really not sure if this was like this is X1 (BTW I am using X2), or if I were to try this with a different soft synth and see if the problem persists in something other than EZDrummer. Will try one of the keyboard synths tonite and see what happens.
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Beagle
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 09:33:36
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it shouldn't be doing that. but I have to ask why you feel it necessary to split the MIDI notes to separate tracks instead of just using separate audio outputs from EZD?
you can set up EZD to send outputs to different tracks and you can either add audio FX for processing directly on those output tracks or if you need to save CPU then you can bounce the audio to new tracks or FREEZE (much cleaner, IMO).
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dxp
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 09:36:24
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Well Beagle, I did not know that! Excellent tip. I thank you. WAY simpler than my described method.
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Beagle
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 09:39:23
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click on the little mixer icon on the EZD GUI and it will take you to the MIXER page where you can set which components go to which ouputs.
however, you need separate audio outputs for the synth. this can be done easily when you first insert the synth by selecting ALL AUDIO OUTPUTS STEREO from the popup dialog box.
if you didn't select that when you inserted the synth and only have one audio output, then you can add them manually, but that's more of a pain. you have to set the inputs and outputs correctly after you add them (up to 8 outputs for EZD, IIRC).
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dxp
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 10:07:59
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Sounds easy enough. Tips like this just make life a lot easier. Thanks Again. Much appreciated. dave
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 10:17:32
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Beagle
it shouldn't be doing that. but I have to ask why you feel it necessary to split the MIDI notes to separate tracks instead of just using separate audio outputs from EZD?
you can set up EZD to send outputs to different tracks and you can either add audio FX for processing directly on those output tracks or if you need to save CPU then you can bounce the audio to new tracks or FREEZE (much cleaner, IMO).
Reece, just a FYI on my behalf, I also use the split notes to tracks CAL. The reason being, once you do that, each midi can be sent to the module of your choice. Or, it can also allow you to run multiple instances of EZD so you can literally use different kits at once. An EZD module with just a kick drum (you load no other samples but the kick) one for snare, one for cymbals etc. So it's pretty cool to do it that way. You can also use SD3 on an instrument, BFD on another, Steven Slate on another...so you have quite a few options when using this method. The thing I like the best with it is....the track separation lets me know in an instant, what midi notes I'm editing as nothing else shows up for that track. It's a heck of a lot cooler looking too to not see all the other midi notes all over the track. :) It gives you loads of tracks (like in this instance, there's 42 drum tracks but the midi won't be touched other than being sent to the module of my choice) but also lots of control. Here's a shot of it:  Closer look: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/SntMultiEZD.JPG See all the EZD modules? Each one has a midi track sent to it so I can use all of the instruments in my EZD library and not just one drum kit like say DFH or something. In this instance, I'm using the pop rock kit for snare and cymbals, DFH for kick and toms and some other cymbals. I could swap one of those out for SD3 or whatever else. So it's pretty cool for situations where you may want the instrumentation of another kit. :) Just figured I'd share that with you. -Danny
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tacman7
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 10:49:35
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Guitarhacker
What soundcard are you using?
I seem to recall that with factory cards the windows mixer can control the levels of bounce and audio input.
check that.
I was thinking that when you bounce a track the sound card is not involved in the operation... Curious about that.
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Beagle
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 12:12:57
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Danny Danzi
Beagle
it shouldn't be doing that. but I have to ask why you feel it necessary to split the MIDI notes to separate tracks instead of just using separate audio outputs from EZD?
you can set up EZD to send outputs to different tracks and you can either add audio FX for processing directly on those output tracks or if you need to save CPU then you can bounce the audio to new tracks or FREEZE (much cleaner, IMO).
Reece, just a FYI on my behalf, I also use the split notes to tracks CAL. The reason being, once you do that, each midi can be sent to the module of your choice. Or, it can also allow you to run multiple instances of EZD so you can literally use different kits at once. An EZD module with just a kick drum (you load no other samples but the kick) one for snare, one for cymbals etc. So it's pretty cool to do it that way. You can also use SD3 on an instrument, BFD on another, Steven Slate on another...so you have quite a few options when using this method.
The thing I like the best with it is....the track separation lets me know in an instant, what midi notes I'm editing as nothing else shows up for that track. It's a heck of a lot cooler looking too to not see all the other midi notes all over the track. :)
It gives you loads of tracks (like in this instance, there's 42 drum tracks but the midi won't be touched other than being sent to the module of my choice) but also lots of control. Here's a shot of it:
Closer look: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/SntMultiEZD.JPG
See all the EZD modules? Each one has a midi track sent to it so I can use all of the instruments in my EZD library and not just one drum kit like say DFH or something. In this instance, I'm using the pop rock kit for snare and cymbals, DFH for kick and toms and some other cymbals. I could swap one of those out for SD3 or whatever else. So it's pretty cool for situations where you may want the instrumentation of another kit. :) Just figured I'd share that with you.
-Danny
Hi Danny, yes, if you use more than one instance of EZD or more drum synths then separating the MIDI into different tracks is one way to do it and might be the best way. but there's an alternative that I've used which works quite well for me and that would be using the drum map. if I have more than one instance of EZD or more than one drum synth being used, I simply edit a drum map to send specific notes to specific synths.
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dxp
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 12:17:43
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This is something I've always wondered if I needed to be doing, using a drum map. Is there any need to do that under 'normal' circumstances? If EZD has all the drums mapped out based on which kit you are using I always thought that took care of everything that was needed. Am I missing something? Danny, I'm not able to connect to your link, but I suspect it is due to my location and not the link. I will check it out later. Do you use separate MIDI channels for each instrument when you do this? I would think if not they would step all over each other. What about any load problems using that many instances of the same soft synth (EZD). Any problems encountered there?
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Beagle
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 12:22:30
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If EZD has all of the outputs you need AND you're able to connect all notes to a kit piece, then you don't need to use a drum map.
there are some hits which are not GM mapped, specifically, IIRC, the hi hat has some open/closed hits which are not GM mapped in some EZD and other drum synths and there may be others.
there is a user download area on the toontrack website where you can download drum maps for sonar for EZD kits.
but if you need to output to more than 8 outputs or if you need more than one instance of EZD or if you're using, for example TTS-1 for some drum/percussion hits which aren't included in EZD's kits, then you can use a drum map to output to the different synths.
and it doesn't necessarily have to be limited to drum synths. you can separate MIDI notes to different synths of any kind using a drum map.
I have a tutorial on my website on how to do this using drum maps. click on my website link in my signature and go to the help area.
it's a little rough to navigate right now because I'm in the middle of changing it, but the information is there if you dig for it.
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konradh
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 12:52:53
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The OP's situation may be different, but I agree with Danny. I almost always have separate MIDI tracks for the various drums so I can mix and match the modules that play the sounds. It is also quicker and easier for me to edit.
If I were 100% using a specific software instrument, it would not matter as much; but I often start in Session Drummer but then pick cymbals from one synth, kick from another, etc.
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dxp
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/24 12:57:09
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Thx for the info guys. It's a real toss up at times whether it's worse to have to monkey around with soft synths and midi or wait for an hour for your drummer to show up and hear, "I was on time wasn't I?" bang,bang,bang, CRASH!!! what did you say?
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/25 00:15:34
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Hi Danny, yes, if you use more than one instance of EZD or more drum synths then separating the MIDI into different tracks is one way to do it and might be the best way. but there's an alternative that I've used which works quite well for me and that would be using the drum map. if I have more than one instance of EZD or more than one drum synth being used, I simply edit a drum map to send specific notes to specific synths.
Hi Reece, Yeah I figured you probably knew about that after I pressed "post". LOL! But in case ya didn't, I figured I'd give it a shot. :) Thanks for sharing the way you do it...that's pretty cool...I'll have to give that a shot. :) dxp: Link is working here. It's just the picture you see with more detail, will be bigger and open up in your browser. The link should work as it was just put in my pulblic drop box folder. Sorry it's not working for you. As for your question about midi channels, no, they are always set to channel 10 for drums and percussion. I know where you're confused....my apologies for not explaining it better brother. When you see all those instances of EZD, they only have a few instruments loaded into them. They aren't full kits in each instance. For example, if you get a chance to see the pic in the link, you'll see them labeled. Each one is exactly what it says. A module with nothing but kick with the room mic and overeads for the kick alone. To do this, I opened up an instance of EZD and then set all instruments to "none" so it's just the EZD module with no samples loaded. From there, I just loaded up a kick only routed it to my virtual track in Sonar and then routed "room" and "overheads" to virtual tracks as well. Next module, snare...same thing. Blank EZD module, and then just load up a snare, room and OH's. Next module hats, and so on until I have built an entire kit using the instruments I want from individual modules. Now, if I didn't use individual modules with one or two instruments in each, it would still work because each of the midi tracks I created would have the outputs sent to the module I want to use, and because each midi track just has one note number it's sending, it would only send to one of the instruments in the module of my choice. So for example, if I had the "kick" module loaded with a complete kit and only the midi track I have my kick on is sent to that module, only the kick drum will play and the rest of the instruments will stay silent. I remove all the instruments I'm not using in a module so my cpu isn't going through the roof. All those modules you see combined, are only showing 260 mb of samples being used because each one only has one or two samples loaded for each. So all those modules combined are the equal to one complete drum kit (more or less) in 1 instance of EZD if you loaded up an entire kit. The midi notes all being set to 10 will not make everything play over top of each other because each midi track I have is sent to a different out to a different module. So it will only play the instruments that are loaded, understand now? Hope this makes more sense to you. Again. I'm sorry if I confused you with that. Good luck! -Danny
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dxp
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/25 08:29:17
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Danny - Yeah it makes sense now. Thx for the time explaining. I'll have to check out your dropbox link when I'm at home. Think the connect problem is here at work. This is new and exciting stuff to delve into with EZD. Dave
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/25 08:51:04
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dxp
Danny - Yeah it makes sense now. Thx for the time explaining. I'll have to check out your dropbox link when I'm at home. Think the connect problem is here at work. This is new and exciting stuff to delve into with EZD. Dave
You're quite welcome. I sent you a pm via this forum which allowed me to also attach the picture. See if you can see it now. :) -Danny
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tbosco
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/25 09:16:41
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I love this Forum!! I never knew about running CAL... til now! Man I have struggled to extract MIDI notes.
Not any more! Just tried it and it works great.
(I know this didn't answer the question, but delighted to learn something new from it!)
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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dxp
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/25 09:28:58
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Danny - you Rock Man! Thanks for the PM. Pic was viewable. Let me digest the entirety of that pic and try it out tonight when I get some studio time. Might have some questions on the back side of that effort if that's ok by you. Your helpfulness on this forum is a good thing. Tony - seems there's quite a bit of learning going on in this thread. Glad you picked up something. I know I'm pretty jacked about the tips Danny and Beagle have offered up here. These will be huge for me as drums have been a bit of a sticking point for me. Beagle - Also going to try out your suggestion tonight about just routing EZD to multiple outputs without splitting notes. Both very useful techniques depending on the situation. Dave
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/25 09:47:31
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Dave: thanks for the kind words. Sure, ask away. If I can help you out, I'll do the best I can. :)
-Danny
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Beagle
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Re:Bounce to Track - Audio degradation
2012/10/25 10:52:41
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you're welcome, Dave, hope I helped, too.
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