Rain
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Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
I guess he's done badmouthing every other band on the planet so he's started criticizing his own band's legacy. Maybe someday he'll reach the point where he actually looks in the mirror... http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/bruce-dickinson-first-iron-maiden-album-sounded-like-a-sack-of-****/ Not like anything they put out since Martin Birch retired in the 90s sounds any good either... It's funny to see how Dickinson claimed that he had no time for social media s**t a few days a go - I guess he's happy updating his statuses by proxy and letting the press type his daily does of inane drivel for him. What an annoying, detestable bloke he seems to be...
post edited by Rain - 2015/09/18 20:25:39
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Brando
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/18 21:43:41
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☄ Helpfulby Rain 2015/09/18 22:12:36
Bruce puts the "Dick" in Dickinson.
Brando
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Lord Tim
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 04:39:10
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I'm not a huge fan of the post-Birch album productions, but he does have a point. That first album did sound pretty terrible, done on a tiny budget and the band were pretty green at the time.
That's not an statement on the material or playing at all, mind you. The fact that these guys still play songs from that album now kind of suggests they thing it's a good album, but just sounds awful. I tend to agree - I'm a huge fan of the first album and even dig the "crapness" of the production, but as a producer myself, I can't really argue when anyone says it sounds awful.
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mgh
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 05:03:56
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seems a perfectly reasonable interview. he says Steve Harris hates the sound on the album, and that there was no punk in Maiden's sound at all...not sure what the issue is?
I also agree that a lot of the new albums sound sterile and lifeless, AMOLAD wasn't even mastered cos Steve liked the sound of the mix...fortunately the new one is pretty good production-wise and has some great songs on it- maybe cos Steve isn't the main songwriter on this one? certainly my fave of the post-reunion albums.
Mind you, I put on Somewhere in Time last week, god I love that album, the riffs, the vocals, the production is awesome...
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jamesg1213
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 10:47:59
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I'm getting 'page doesn't exist' from the link.
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ØSkald
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 11:00:52
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Moshkito
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 11:45:11
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Hi,
My friend says that their album, that just came out, is probably their best ... hmmm ... is it time to listen to it, yet?
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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Beepster
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 11:46:01
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2015/09/19 12:37:37
Are we talking the FIRST IM album or the first one with Bruce (NOTB)?
I actually love the sound of NOTB even though it's definitely "lo fi" by today's standards. It's very warm, human and real. You can hear everything in balance and it sounds like a "band" not a bunch of disparate sounds mixed together and maximized.
TBH the stuff they did after that, although musically great, turns me off because of the sheer crispness/perfection of the production. Those albums sound like the studio... not the band. HOWEVER those albums also have a production quality I FAR prefer to almost everything else coming out of studios at the time. For example you can actually hear the damned bass (a rarity in that era of metal albums) and all the instruments are nice and full (whereas other albums were kind of thin and mosquitoey).
The REALLY early stuff (pre NOTB) though should really be taken for what they are. Demo's of a unique band performing a unique new style of music (and that band in particular were even unique within that new genre). I don't think even the top producers really would have known what to do with something like that at the time.
Also back then they were a LOT sloppier than they became (but still really good comparitively).
I do like those albums for sure and I'm probably an outlier as far as my ears/taste in metal sounds but they are pretty low rent. As a massive fan of early punk though that rawness certainly is part of the charm for me.
Now a CRAPPY sounding album, to me, is Metallica's Kill 'em All. Horrible sounding record but I still like it. Their production values after that (up to and even including And Justice which would be my FAVORITE Metallica record if not for the lack of bass... Newstead got a raw deal on that) were right up my alley. Warm, full and tight without losing that "band" feel. Black album and beyond... sounds like the studio. Blech... (and I won't even go into my thoughts on the music itself).
But as I said I like punk and actually most of my favorite recordings are well produced live performances.
I just like to listen to bands, warts and all, over "albums".
Meh... without reading the interview I can't form an opinion on what he said. I like Bruce but he is a bit pompous at times. He is however highly intelligent, educated and accomplished so in some ways I guess he can get away with a bit of that.
Still doesn't negate the fact he kind of sings like Ethel Merman... which still makes me snicker as I listen to them ever since someone pointed that out to me. lulz
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Moshkito
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 11:51:13
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Hi,
Nice writeup Beepster ... I think I'll check a couple of things on the tube (not my style as I like to listen to the whole album kinda thing!) ... and go from there.
Thanks
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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Beepster
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 12:09:29
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Hi, Moshie. It's all subjective of course and my tastes may be a little odd.
However if you go to their Wiki entry (or any band really) that of course will have discogrophies by year. Then when you head over to youtube search the band name, album name and add "Full Album" to the query. Generally you'll find the full record. Beware though some people REALLY suck at transferring/uploading music so there are lots of vids like that on youtube that sound way worse than the actual recordings. If there are multiple uploads I'll try a few different ones until I find one that sounds more like the original.
I actually usually own all these records anyway but it's just more convenient for me to listen on youtube instead of dragging them out of my various cd holder/case thingies or boxes crammed with cassettes. I also have better things to do than rip and manage all that crap.
I only feel bad listening to stuff I DON'T own but hey... when the money is flowing again those YT listening sessions contribute to me spazzing out a dropping money on things I like.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 12:28:50
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☄ Helpfulby Rain 2015/09/19 15:50:05
I've listened through The Book Of Souls four or five times since I got it, and I must say, I agree with Mark. For me, the songwriting isn't necessarily 'better' per se, but it is definitely more varied. Steve Harris is a great songwriter, I've always been inspired by his 'epics' - long story-telling songs with a number of tempo changes and the occasional, deftly handled, change of direction mid-tune. But maybe you can have too much of a good thing? I must be honest, I'm not altogether sold on the production though. On the plus side, Nicko's drums do sound better than they have for a while. On the down side, the bass guitar doesn't seem to have any presence in the mix for my ears (talking about pre-Dickinson albums, compare the bass on TBOS to the bass sound on Killers - even when Harris plays his trademark high runs and flourishes the bass still has power and presence in the mix). I have to say I'm not over-impressed with the guitar sound either. I do appreciate that it must be a bugger to mix three rhythm guitars into a coherent sound, but the guitars sound like a bit of a mid-range mush to me. There's a clarity, or separation, I'm not quite getting I'm afraid. And all three sound very similar, so without looking it up, it's almost impossible to tell who's taking which solo, sometimes it's only the individual players' little idiosyncrasies that even slightly betray who's doing what. To ensure it wasn't just me hearing (or not) things, earlier today I listened to Priest's Redeemer Of Souls straight after TBOS and for me, the difference is remarkable. Ritchie and Glenn's rigs just sound so much better in the mix than the Maiden boys' do. And they do sound completely different to each other, so it's obvious which one is soloing; plus of course when they are trading solo passages, their parts are panned to the same side as their rhythm parts. It's also nice to hear the separation of tones when they are both playing rhythm - Faulkner's sound being generally more trebly (as was KK's) than Tipton's. I think I referred to this in a previous thread (when the album came out) when I bemoaned the fact that Glenn's solos didn't seem to be as loud as Ritchie's. As far as the first Iron Maiden album goes, it is their best album as far as I'm concerned. The songwriting was a revelation at the time, and the tempo changes were something we'd only heard regularly in prog rock up to that point (cue Pedro  ). So the production is a bit on the thin side. So what? It's a collection of great songs and a seminal release in the then burgeoning NWOBHM (New Wave Of British Heavy Metal). Incidentally, Geoff Barton deserves an award for the worst anonym in history (WAH!) for coining that mouthful  Having seen Maiden before they released their eponymous debut, it was obvious then that they were going to be enormous. I suppose that's why I'm a bit biased when it comes to picking a favourite album, but I suppose it's just the fact that you were there at the start, and hearing those songs live before they even cut a record makes you feel somehow part of it all I guess. Same for me with the debut Clash album. Production-wise (even after Mick Jones' recent and quite superb remastering job) it sounds like it was recorded in a shed, with Simonon playing through a transistor radio speaker, but the songs, and what the album meant, all mean more than the studio budget they recorded it on. More thoughts to come, but my stir-fry awaits 
post edited by SteveStrummerUK - 2015/09/19 12:39:10
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SteveStrummerUK
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Beepster
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 13:00:06
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SteveStrummerUK
 Chris on a bike, how short is the silent edit time these days 
Non existent. They had fixed it for about a week then it reverted back to instantaneous. It's some weird setting in the forum software only the Baker's can set and apparently has some quirks. The original statement was something about the software resetting it all on its lonesome (without Admin input) so I guess aside from someone with full permissions tweaking it regularly we may be stuck until the software provider fixes it (and we go through another forum update which will likely introduce new and potentially more annoying issues). It tweaks me a little too but that's just because I'm a bit of an OCD spazzo so I keep that in mind and try to ignore it. On topic though... I really should listen to the newer albums. To be perfectly honest I haven't listened to any new Maiden since probably the mid to late 90's. Not even sure what's been released in that time. I am a BAD fan... aren't I? *shame*
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 14:02:20
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Beepster
On topic though... I really should listen to the newer albums. To be perfectly honest I haven't listened to any new Maiden since probably the mid to late 90's. Not even sure what's been released in that time.
Just my opinion Beep, but I haven't been overly impressed with any of their studio albums since Fear Of The Dark. The two albums with Blaze Bayley certainly had some good stuff on them, and I actually welcomed the change of vocalist. Bruce Dickinson has always been, in my opinion anyway, the third best vocalist Maiden have had. As a brief aside, when me and SidStrummerUK went to see Saxon a couple of years back in Wolverhampton, the support act were Wolfsbane (of who I knew very little until Mark [mgh] shared some of his immense metal knowledge with me  ) and their lead singer was one Blaze Bayley. I have to say, he was an incredible front man, albeit a complete nutter! Brave New World was always going to be a popular album as far as the majority of Maiden fans, with Bruce Dickinson and Adrian Smith welcomed back into the fold. For me though, it was very much 'same old, same old' I'm afraid. As have been the subsequent albums, Dance Of Death, A Matter Of Life And Death and (the awful) The Final Frontier for that matter. My first impressions of The Book Of Souls are much more favourable in comparison. And maybe it's just me regarding the overall production, who knows But the songs are good. Very good actually. The sort of songs you're happy to listen to again and again. I'll be honest, I listened to The Final Frontier three or four times, and I haven't played it since. TBOS is definitely going to get plenty of listens, that's for sure. Incidentally, going back to the production, one thing's for certain, Maiden have never released a badly produced live album. Right back to the wonderful Live After Death double LP (which I still have somewhere!), it's difficult to fault their live sound, and how well and how consistently that's been captured. In fact Beep, you could do much worse than listening to Death on the Road (2005), which contains cracking live renditions of some of the better material from The X-Factor, Dance Of Death and Brave New World, interspersed as you'd expect, with a healthy dollop of classics.
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Beepster
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 14:35:28
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Thanks for the suggestions, Steve. Really I think my biggest problem keeping on top of newer releases of the old bands I love (especially the metal guys) was just total flop-a-ramas through the nineties and beyond. It's like everyone was trying too hard or lost their spirit and the producers/labels trashed whatever good was still there. Of course everyone had moved on to other sonic pursuits too. I've probably missed out on some hidden gems because of all that.
The only really consistent hard hitters to me I'd get excited about new releases from that never (usually) disappointed me were from Slayer and Motorhead.
Funny thing is I wasn't actually into those two bands back in the day. I thought they were TOO nuts, noisy and crazy as young greaser. I didn't get it. Now... I so tooootally get it. lulz
Cheers.
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Rain
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 15:51:54
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Book of Souls is in the mail on its way to me - because I have to learn a song for a project my wife and I are working on. And because, Adrian Smith. The man is the David Gilmour of heavy metal, as far as I'm concerned. I've pre-auditionned it on Itunes and I detested the production once again. IMHO, Steve Harris should step out of the producer chair. Fear of the Dark is the last Maiden album that sounded okay to me - even then, it was nowhere near as impressive as the older stuff. As for the first Maiden album... Obviously it doesn't have the sonic impact that the follow-ups have, it very sterile sounding, a bit limp... But I've heard worst. I'd listen to the first Maiden all day whereas I can't get past the first cut on Final Frontier (yeah, that one with terrible edits that cause subtle timing issues - like there's an excuse for that in the days of digital editing...) or anything they've put out since (and including) Brave New World.
post edited by Rain - 2015/09/19 16:01:07
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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mgh
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 16:14:42
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being a member of the Terrorizer forum, one of our fave things to do is rate discographys, and Maiden's gets done pretty often, so:
IM - 4.5 (out of 5)
Killers - 5
NOTB - 5
POM- 4.5
Power - 4.5
SIT - 5
SSOASS - 5
NPFTD- 3
FOTD - 4
(something happened here..)
BNW - 3.5
DOD - 2.5
AMOLAD - 4
TFF - 3
TBOS - 4.5
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Rain
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 16:17:53
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I do find that there's a punk edge to those first albums w/ DiAnno - an element of aggression, a few songs w/ faster tempo, not to mention the topics of the songs. Far from the history lessons of Alexander the Great or the adaptation of classic English poetry such as Rime of the Ancient Mariner... The level of sophistication is closer to street smarts than literature clubs. Obviously, Dickinson HATES punk, so what HE associates with it is bound to be detestable to him. Punk saved rock and roll, forcing it to get its head out of its pretentious butt w/ all the long-winded jams and solos, and to become abrasive and relevant again. It was about to become old people music.
post edited by Rain - 2015/09/19 16:29:37
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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Beepster
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 16:32:12
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Rain
I do find that there's a punk edge to those first albums w/ DiAnno - an element of aggression, a few songs w/ faster tempo, not to mention the topics of the songs. Far from the history lessons of Alexander the Great or the adaptation of classic English poetry such as Rime of the Ancient Mariner...
The level of sophistication is closer to street smarts than literature clubs.
Obviously, Dickinson HATES punk, so what HE associates with it is bound to be detestable to him. Punk saved rock and roll, forcing it to get its head out of its pretentious butt w/ all the long-winded jams and solos, and to become abrasive and relevant again. It was about to become old people music.
Indeed. DiAnno definitely had the street hood vibe. Dickinson the pseudo intellectual vibe. I can appreciate and relate to both. I don't think Maiden could have scrounged their way up from street level without DiAnno and I don't think they could have refined themselves enough to acheive stadium level without the "Dick". Kind of like what would Metallica have been without Mustaine? What would they have been if they kept him? My answer would be... not anywhere near what they DID become. As far as punk... anyone who denies the punk movement had a direct influence on the creation of metal was either born too late or still hold the old street beefs to the point of zealotry. I was born too late so never saw the progression. I know better now.
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Beepster
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 16:39:43
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And if you go to any metal show now you'll likely see a few Mohawks. Conversely you go to any punk show now and you'll likely see a few old thrash/metal band shirts and long hairs with cut off denim vests over a leather jacket. These are the young kids too. Fookin' brilliant to see. When I saw my first hardcore punk band that REALLY moved me (I thought it was all three chord bullsh*t played by junkies up until that moment) I was HOOKED. That was before metalheads and punks were really crossing over but kind of sort of after the street beefs of the 80's had died down. It was all uphill from there. The young kids are doing some CRAZY stuff now that you will never hear because it's all underground.
post edited by Beepster - 2015/09/19 16:49:11
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 17:26:15
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Metal and punk share a lot of DNA for sure. Heavy Rock/Hard Rock/Classic Rock would all be twigs on the same branch of the music family tree as well. Mind you, to appreciate the difference, it's worth listening to the Sex Pistols' Anarchy In The UK and then comparing it to Megadeth's cover version of the same song. Megadeth's version is reasonably faithful to the original, but on a simple A-B of the two versions, the Pistols' version is undoubtedly a punk song, and Megadeth is most certainly a metal song (see below). With punk and metal, it's the distorted guitars that provides the closest link I guess. Add in some good old fashioned in-your-face aggression and you're halfway there. It's certainly not always the case I will concede, but the biggest differences between the two would probably be the subject matter of the songs, and the technical expertise of the musicians. Motörhead arguably invented thrash, although to me, they had more of the punk 'ethic' than Maiden ever did. I think the punk thing with Maiden might have had more to do with Di'Anno's spiky hair than the music they played. As I mentioned before, having seen them before they released Iron Maiden, I can testify that there was nothing 'punk' about their songs or performance, even at that early stage in their career. Although this could be the bestest version ever....
post edited by SteveStrummerUK - 2015/09/19 18:07:28
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mgh
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 17:37:06
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Beepster
Rain
I do find that there's a punk edge to those first albums w/ DiAnno - an element of aggression, a few songs w/ faster tempo, not to mention the topics of the songs. Far from the history lessons of Alexander the Great or the adaptation of classic English poetry such as Rime of the Ancient Mariner...
The level of sophistication is closer to street smarts than literature clubs.
Obviously, Dickinson HATES punk, so what HE associates with it is bound to be detestable to him. Punk saved rock and roll, forcing it to get its head out of its pretentious butt w/ all the long-winded jams and solos, and to become abrasive and relevant again. It was about to become old people music.
Indeed. DiAnno definitely had the street hood vibe. Dickinson the pseudo intellectual vibe.
I can appreciate and relate to both.
I don't think Maiden could have scrounged their way up from street level without DiAnno and I don't think they could have refined themselves enough to acheive stadium level without the "Dick".
Kind of like what would Metallica have been without Mustaine? What would they have been if they kept him? My answer would be... not anywhere near what they DID become.
As far as punk... anyone who denies the punk movement had a direct influence on the creation of metal was either born too late or still hold the old street beefs to the point of zealotry.
I was born too late so never saw the progression. I know better now.
erm, metal was around at the same time or before punk mate. the high energy and short song format of punk was not dissimilar to metal, but in metal the riff/technical aspect was a lot more important. there was no political message in metal.
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mgh
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 17:38:20
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SteveStrummerUK
Metal and punk share a lot of DNA for sure. Heavy Rock/Hard Rock/Classic Rock would all be twigs on the same branch of the music family tree as well.
Mind you, to appreciate the difference, it's worth listening to the Sex Pistols' Anarchy In The UK and then comparing it to Megadeth's cover version of the same song. Megadeth's version is reasonably faithful to the original, but on a simple A-B of the two versions, the Pistols' version is undoubtedly a punk song, and Megadeth is most certainly a metal song (see below).
With punk and metal, it's the distorted guitars that provides the closest link I guess. Add in some good old fashioned in-your-face aggression and you're halfway there. It's certainly not always the case I will concede, but the biggest differences between the two would probably be the subject matter of the songs, and the technical expertise of the musicians.
Motörhead arguably invented thrash, although to me, they had more of the punk 'ethic' than Maiden ever did. I think the punk thing with Maiden might have had more to do with Di'Anno's spiky hair than the music they played. As I mentioned before, having seen them before they released Iron Maiden, I can testify that there was nothing 'punk' about their songs or performance, even at that early stage in their career.
Although this could be the bestest version ever....
bastard ;-)
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 18:01:03
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mgh
bastard ;-)
Now in easy to access video format for your pleasure
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 18:03:17
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mgh
Beepster
Rain
I do find that there's a punk edge to those first albums w/ DiAnno - an element of aggression, a few songs w/ faster tempo, not to mention the topics of the songs. Far from the history lessons of Alexander the Great or the adaptation of classic English poetry such as Rime of the Ancient Mariner...
The level of sophistication is closer to street smarts than literature clubs.
Obviously, Dickinson HATES punk, so what HE associates with it is bound to be detestable to him. Punk saved rock and roll, forcing it to get its head out of its pretentious butt w/ all the long-winded jams and solos, and to become abrasive and relevant again. It was about to become old people music.
Indeed. DiAnno definitely had the street hood vibe. Dickinson the pseudo intellectual vibe.
I can appreciate and relate to both.
I don't think Maiden could have scrounged their way up from street level without DiAnno and I don't think they could have refined themselves enough to acheive stadium level without the "Dick".
Kind of like what would Metallica have been without Mustaine? What would they have been if they kept him? My answer would be... not anywhere near what they DID become.
As far as punk... anyone who denies the punk movement had a direct influence on the creation of metal was either born too late or still hold the old street beefs to the point of zealotry.
I was born too late so never saw the progression. I know better now.
erm, metal was around at the same time or before punk mate. the high energy and short song format of punk was not dissimilar to metal, but in metal the riff/technical aspect was a lot more important. there was no political message in metal.
^^This^^ Tony Iommi invented heavy metal, just up the road from here. And Judas Priest made it even better, just up the road from that.
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Beepster
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 18:30:59
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mgh
erm, metal was around at the same time or before punk mate. the high energy and short song format of punk was not dissimilar to metal, but in metal the riff/technical aspect was a lot more important. there was no political message in metal.
Disagree. There was certainly "proto-punk" and "proto-metal" kicking around and bubbling under the surface around the same time but the punk stuff solidified and hit the musical psyche before metal did. Sabbath was its own thing and of course highly influential with the use of the "Devil's Fifth" but were really more of a jazz/rock fusion that took a wrong/twisted turn THEN became metal afterward. Seriously I listen to those early albums and there is absolutely no real connection to metal aside from a couple riffs that got yanked into the metal repertoire. Real metal didn't kick off until the first wave of punk had all but died off and got forced back underground. That original wave of punk is what influenced what really became metal in the clubs of England. Even Zeppelin, who get called metal were a distorted up blues band. Alice Cooper was just a shock rock spazz hanging out with Zappa (all very blues/rock/jazz oriented stuff in the early days... undefined). In a lot of ways I think Maiden and Preist were the first REAL metal bands playing REAL metal music. Everything before that was proto metal. Even Sabbath followed that lead even though they were the ones who opened the door up to the diminished 5th riffs (and Zeppelin the "chug" riff). Punk got a an official name in 1975 and mass recognition but really bands like the Kinks were doing that well beforehand and other more "recognized" pre-punk bands like Television and Death preceded that (and almost preceded Sabbath). So it comes down to labels really and when the "style/fashion/movements" came about. Metalheads didn't really come about until after the mohawks. The musical styles of both... well they had been in the primordial ooze for a while but the punk sound was probably more evolved well before Iommi had the ghostly image appear at the foot of his bed shocking him into writing the riff to "Black Sabbath" (the big... nasty... devil's fifth we now so casually chug around). Pistols style riffs had been around forever before Malcolm concocted his nefarious scheme to sell more S&M gear. It should be noted I am one of those who make a serious distinction between "metal" and "hard rock". Zeppelin and AC/DC, in that mindset, are NOT metal. They are hard, blues based, rock. Sabbath were distorted, dark, drugged out jazz rock that led to the metal movement which didn't kick of properly until almost a decade later. Essentially proto metal who became what they created. Now if we want to talk Steppenwolf... well... that's a pretty damned proto-metal band and I'm honestly not quite sure where to slide those buggers in. Again very blues/rock oriented but they had the chugs, growls, power and all that. It's kind of like punk and metal were ALWAYS there. Mod stuff evolved into punk. Biker/hippie stuff into metal. Both feeding off of/influencing each as their fans rejected each other. If we bring it down to leather, head banging and shredding vs. mohawks, safety pins inserted through extremeties and pogoing... punk came first. /not a historian //loves both
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Beepster
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 18:38:43
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And all that is COMPLETELY ignoring the Who's "My Generation" which really was the first punk song. They only got sucked into the "Mod" thing because that's the only crowd that would have them... and mods pretty much begat punk anyway.
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craigb
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 18:59:34
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For Steve... I'll ignore PIL's version since it's still Johnny Rotten, but here are a few other covers. And, finally, the best version EVER!!! 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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mgh
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 19:05:31
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well I agree to some degree Beep but also disagree a bit....Sabbath were definitely metal from the 2nd album on, there's deffo a lot of heavy blues on the 1st album but also you cannot ignore the title track (and you don't). Priest were also active in this time.
However, metal and punk both grew out of heavy rock, both had clear demographics and images, but musically they were different and certainly ideologically.
The first metal 'movement' was post punk (NWOBHM) and from then on metal had waves of sub-genres (speed.thrash, death,black then glam, prog, heavy, funk etc)
it doesn't really matter I suppose...except metal won!;-)
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Rain
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Re: Bruce Dickinson badmouthing... Iron Maiden?!
2015/09/19 19:09:02
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mgh
erm, metal was around at the same time or before punk mate. the high energy and short song format of punk was not dissimilar to metal, but in metal the riff/technical aspect was a lot more important. there was no political message in metal.
Granted metal was there before - but by the late 70's, rock music was in sort of the weird place. All those classic bands were regarded as dinosaurs. For exemple, I am a die hard Black Sabbath fan, but in the second half of the 70s, albums like Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die weren't exactly genre defining. Their music certainly doesn't sound as inspired as on the first 4 or 5 albums. Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, KISS and those big rock bands weren't exactly in their prime and most of them were seeking themselves and experimenting or trying to build a reputation as serious musicians - which is usually the sign of decline... They'd lost "the eye of the tiger" to use a bad analogy. They were well-established, rich, drugged out and lacking focus. Incidentally, maybe it's just me but I certainly hear a social/political message in songs like War Pigs. Likewise, I can't hear a song like Breaking the Law and not think of the whole punk scene. It seems to me that bands that became relevant in the late 70s reacted to the whole punk movement - they brought back energy, the anger and that edge. Music for social misfits.
post edited by Rain - 2015/09/19 19:18:43
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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