Helpful ReplyBus Latency ?

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SonicExplorer
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2018/06/05 05:27:51 (permalink)

Bus Latency ?

Hi,

In general, is there any latency introduced by parallel compressing using a bus?  Or does Sonar know how to compensate for this kind of thing?
 
Sonic

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#1
scook
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 05:34:57 (permalink)
Any plug-in requiring PDC will affect the project regardless of its location.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 07:00:52 (permalink)
I better clarify further....  I wasn't referring to real time latency per-se, but rather wondering if Sonar is smart enough to compensate so it doesn't get things out of alignment internally.   Here's a specific example:  Let's say we route a track to Aux1 bus which has a plug-in with some latency, say a compressor.  So parallel compression is happening (the main dry track and Aux 1 playing in parallel).  Is Sonar smart enough to compensate for any latency caused by the routing through Aux 1 so that the resulting master bus output doesn't have latency/phasing issues?
 
Sonic

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karhide
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 14:31:19 (permalink)
SonicExplorer
I better clarify further....  I wasn't referring to real time latency per-se, but rather wondering if Sonar is smart enough to compensate so it doesn't get things out of alignment internally.   Here's a specific example:  Let's say we route a track to Aux1 bus which has a plug-in with some latency, say a compressor.  So parallel compression is happening (the main dry track and Aux 1 playing in parallel).  Is Sonar smart enough to compensate for any latency caused by the routing through Aux 1 so that the resulting master bus output doesn't have latency/phasing issues?
 
Sonic




Yes, any plug-in requiring PDC will affect the project regardless of its location.

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SonicExplorer
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 16:44:44 (permalink)
How then does someone determine what latency may be involved, and how does one compensate for it so two parallel tracks (one dry one wet) don't end up out of sync at the master output bus ?
 
Sonic

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John T
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 16:55:41 (permalink)
You're overthinking it. It just gets taken care of automatically.

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godino
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 17:34:41 (permalink)
Good question though
 
Following onto to ops question - never been able work out under what circumstances would you use the PDC toggle??

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bitflipper
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 17:39:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/06/12 23:20:10
PDC depends on the plugin itself to report back what its internal latency is, so that Cakewalk can slow everything else down to match it. 99.9% of the time, the scheme works perfectly. It's one of the details that CW worked out long ago, before most other DAWs did.
 
Once in a while, though, a plugin isn't accurate in its reported latency and phase cancellations can ensue. Sometimes external hardware can also be an issue because there is no mechanism for it to report its latency back to the DAW.
 
It's easy enough to test a plugin by sending a sharp transient to it and zooming in on the waveform to make sure the main and parallel paths line up.
 
The only time you're going to routinely run into latency problems is with plugins that feature minimum-phase filters, meaning any equalizer or any effect that incorporates an equalizer. For that reason, you want to be careful applying EQ to parallel paths and avoid steep EQ boosts. Or use linear phase equalizers. These issues do not normally apply to compressors, even if the compressor incorporates a sidechain filter.
 
As for when you'd want to intentionally defeat PDC, I can think of only one scenario: when you have to track something new on a nearly-finished project, such as a last-minute BGV. In that case, it's acceptable to temporarily kill PDC for the sake of synchronization while tracking.


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#8
SonicExplorer
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 18:58:23 (permalink)
"
bitflipper 
The only time you're going to routinely run into latency problems is with plugins that feature minimum-phase filters, meaning any equalizer or any effect that incorporates an equalizer. 
 


 
bitflipper, do you mean it is only a potential concern for some types of EQ plugs which do NOT report PDC?  Or does your statement apply regardless of whether or not PDC is reported? 
 
I'm using parallel compression and some EQ plugs to bring out drum transients. So this paradigm we are discussing could apply in my case (that's one reason I created the thread....I was hearing tiny random differences between the hits of the snare and hi-hats, but turns out it must be the "humanize" feature of the drum VSTi).  Anyway, it got me thinking about potential latency issues.
 
Thanks in advance to everybody for helping me understand this potential latency anomaly. 
 
Sonic

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#9
tlw
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/05 23:32:32 (permalink)
There is “potential latency” but it’s very rare indeed for it to be an issue with parallel processing.

If it were all kinds of things would demonstrate problems - as well as linear phase eqs being notorious for high latency while they do their sums there’s anything that uses a “look ahead” algorithm, which many compressors and limiters do.

Some plugins take enough time to do their thing to need the audio buffer increasing to the point of noticeable latency if tracking and monitoring through the DAW using the track echo function. There are even a few around which require over a second on a pretty hefty PC/Mac, but even that gets compensated automatically so everything lines up.

9,999 times out of 10,000 all the modern DAWs can compensate for this without issues unless the plugin is very badly written. Which is very rare.

The DAW knows, from the answers to the sums it does, where on the timeline audio data should be placed, so all it needs to do is work out which plugins requires however much time to do their thing then shift the processed data around the time-line accordingly.

There’s really no need to worry over this, at least not unless you plan on coding your own DAW.

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#10
35mm
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/06 00:37:19 (permalink)
It's compensated for by the fact that the whole sound will be delayed by the slowest process that causes the most latency. So in other words, the audio is output after the final processing is complete, and therefore all your audio will be in sync.

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bitflipper
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/06 00:59:38 (permalink)
SonicExplorer
bitflipper, do you mean it is only a potential concern for some types of EQ plugs which do NOT report PDC?  Or does your statement apply regardless of whether or not PDC is reported? 

 
Sorry, reading back my explanation I see that it must have been confusing, because I conflated two different (but related) things: latency and phase cancellation. I should have just ended it with the PDC part, but sometimes my fingers take off on their own (as my bandmates can attest when I'm soloing onstage).
 
Here's how those two things are related...incorrect latency compensation can cause phase issues; plugins that cause phase shifts can also cause phase issues. I connected those seemingly unrelated dots because they both involve time delays, and both result in similarly unpleasant-sounding effects. 
 
To clarify, EQs are no more prone to misreporting latency than any other plugin. However, it is in their nature to cause phase shifts. Those phase shifts are normally not noticeable - except when run in parallel. That's the tie-in.
 


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SonicExplorer
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/06 04:40:40 (permalink)
I think I figured out the problem I was experiencing....   I'm using Superior Drummer 2 and it has a feature called X-Drums.  It allows extra kit pieces to be layered on top of each other.  For example two snares, or two kicks.  BUT....for some reason the pairs don't always fire perfectly in concert.  It varies based on the kit piece, and possibly also due to the humanize function I suspect.  I think maybe the samples themselves which are not consistent between kits in terms of where the transients align.  One snare sample may not align with another snare sample just by virtue of the actual recorded samples.  Best I can tell (speculate) these are the factors involved.  Sort of defeats the value of the concept of X-Drums though....

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bitflipper
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/06 14:26:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/06/12 23:28:46
That's a common challenge when layering sounds. Phase relationships between the layers can both increase and decrease tonal complexity. When it's a bunch of human voices or violins, it usually comes out sounding pretty good. When it's layered kick or bass samples, it's a toss-up. The difference often comes down to the frequency ranges and the inherent complexity of each layer. Higher frequencies and more complex sounds (like voices) tend to blend better.
 
Fact is, you cannot get two drum samples to ever be perfectly in phase with one another. Not unless they're literally identical, which would indeed defeat the purpose of layering. That's because you can only ever match phase for one specific frequency and its harmonics. The more inharmonic content there is (e.g. drums), the more phase differences will exist.
 
That said, it's still worth fiddling with phase to see what effect it has. It's why you use two microphones on a guitar speaker and move them around until you find the tone you like. It's why you nudge drum or bass samples and listen for when it starts sounding fatter. Superior Drummer does let you offset the X-Drum sample for that reason. In the kit definition screen, enable the envelope section. There is a knob labeled "offset". The knob's overly touchy though, so you may want to type in offset values since you'll likely settle on a value of just a few milliseconds.


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John T
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/06 15:06:30 (permalink)
bitflipper
Fact is, you cannot get two drum samples to ever be perfectly in phase with one another. Not unless they're literally identical, which would indeed defeat the purpose of layering. That's because you can only ever match phase for one specific frequency and its harmonics. The more inharmonic content there is (e.g. drums), the more phase differences will exist.




Indeed.
 
Myself, I don't like to layer multiple drum sounds, certainly not in their raw form. It seems a bit too unpredictable to me.
 
What I do like to do, is to decide what I feel the core individual drum sound is lacking, and find a way to add that.
 
Say I've got a kick drum which I generally like, but is lacking a bit of low end thump. I might layer in another kick, but that second kick would be low-passed as low as maybe 70hz. So I'd just be using the low end of it, and getting rid of a lot of phase issues.
 
Or I might not even use another kick. One thing I like is to get a low sine wave, and sidechain gate that off the kick. Tune the sine wave to a frequency that suits the song, either root or fifth, somewhere between 50-100hz. Adds plenty of weight to weedy kick sounds. But we're leaving all the highly inharmonic transient work to the original drum sound.

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gswitz
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/06 17:09:57 (permalink)
What about the mix knob on the 64 eq that cakewalk added a couple of years ago?

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bitflipper
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/07 02:41:51 (permalink)
Don't know about the CW EQ, but every EQ I own that has a "mix" control isn't really a mix control like you'd see on compressors, reverbs or delays.
 
It can't be, because you cannot run an equalizer in parallel (or the equivalent, mixing wet and dry signals within the plugin) without risking weird phase cancellations. I have several EQs from Meldaproduction, for example, that feature a "mix" control, but it's actually a global gain adjustment that applies to all bands.


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SonicExplorer
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/07 04:00:36 (permalink)
Wow, good discussion, thanks for the ideas guys.  And I will definitely look into that feature in Superior 2 that apparently lets you adjust sample alignment.  
 
Tonight I spent quite a bit of time messing with the parallel buses I have set up.  I don't understand why, but for some reason it seems I'm getting phase issues or something similar.  The minute I enable a Sonitus EQ, or a compressor, or whatever on a bus, it seems like I instantly lose a little something, even if the plug isn't doing anything.  I found by disabling the entire FX bin on a parallel bus it actually sounded more pure.  But even then, the sound altered slightly depending on how high I raised the fader - and in a way that goes beyond just pure volume increase.   I hadn't done a lot of parallel busing in a DAW before so some of these side effects are new to me.  Even when using a paralel reverb bus (for snare as an example) it seems to behave strangely as I raise the fader.  It alters the underlying tone of the snare, not just the reverb.  I'm so accustomed to working in analog studios many years ago that some of the concepts I had used aren't exactly behaving the same in a DAW. So I'm having a lot of pain trying to figure out what's going on in certain cases, and how to control things.   Ugh.   I hate computers....

Sonic

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bitflipper
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/07 14:17:57 (permalink)
Sounds stupidly basic, but we often forget that when you do any kind of parallel processing you are summing two signals. You are going to get both destructive and constructive interference, meaning some frequencies are attenuated while others are boosted. Sometimes, the results are unexpectedly good, sometimes they're unexpectedly bad, and sometimes just plain unexpected. It's what makes experimentation fun!
 
This phenomenon bites me more often than I like to admit. Why is the snare suddenly too loud? Oh, yeh, I just ran a send from it to the reverb bus. Duh. Everything you run to the reverb bus gets louder.
 
However, running identical signals to two busses should only make it louder. If it also affects tone, then there's something else going on. It could be a plugin that's not being properly latency-compensated, but more likely one of the two signal paths has some kind of filtering happening.
 
 


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The Maillard Reaction
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2018/06/07 14:29:44 (permalink)

post edited by dj squarewave - 2018/06/09 11:29:31


#20
chris.r
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/07 15:19:32 (permalink)
Or PDC deactivated. Check if yours is active in the control bar.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/08 23:57:54 (permalink)
You know, I tried the offset thing in Superior 2 and was able to get the layered kick attack more focused but what I found interesting was there are still times when the hits are still off.  It must be due to either differences in some samples based as the velocity changes, or due to the humanize function shifting the samples at times.
 
Maybe in te future I better try filtering off the top end click in one of the kick layers to avoid hearing any mis-alignments.   Snare hit alignement is more tolerant because of the top end smearing attributed to the snares.
 
Sonic

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iRelevant
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/12 23:41:58 (permalink)
Apologies for intruding in the tread, but I'm impressed with this APDC thing. Could anybody tell me when it was first successfully introduced ? Did it work for DX/DXi type of plugs ?

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bitflipper
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/13 01:15:25 (permalink)
Not sure, but I think PDC was introduced in 2003 with SONAR 4. It may have been earlier than that.
 
And yes, it works with DX as well as external inserts, although the latter didn't get ironed out properly until SONAR 8.5, IIRC.


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iRelevant
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Re: Bus Latency ? 2018/06/13 04:36:32 (permalink)
Wow. That's 15 years for fine tuning. Good to know :) Thank you.

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