Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems.

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fireberd
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2018/04/24 13:22:03 (permalink)

Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems.

I posted this in the hardware section but not getting any responses.
 
I had a previous post about this problem and thought it was resolved, but its not. 
If I power on my equipment rack, which includes the X-Touch (and its shown as working OK in the Device Manager) and then start Sonar Plat or the newer CbB the X-Touch is shown, correctly, as a control surface BUT apparently Sonar is not communicating with the X-Touch as the motorized faders are not working and the track indicators/switches do not work.  This appears to be a Sonar/CbB problem as I can start Studio One 3 or Cubase LE and the X-Touch is working OK with them.  
 
I can get Sonar/CbB to communicate with the X-Touch by deleting the X-Touch and adding a new control surface, Mackie Control.  After the delete/add the X-Touch works in Sonar/CbB.
 
The X-Touch and Sonar has worked properly for a long time.  The problem has been going on for a couple of months and I would suspect some Windows 10 update is causing the error in Sonar.  Something that has been heavily discussed here, a Windows update "breaking" Sonar.  CbB appears to be basically a rebadged Platinum version and most likely why Platinum and CbB both have the problem.

I have the latest Windows 10 Pro, Version 1709 Build 16299.371 and a dual boot Windows Insider V 1803 (a very minimal install on the Insider version - the OS, MS Office and Sonar Platinum/CbB).  It acts the same on both.

"GCSG Productions"
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    optimus
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/24 17:43:16 (permalink)
    For what it's worth, I have been using X-Touch with SPLAT, and CbB, since it's release, with no problems. However, I'm still running Win7, so can't speak to Win10.
     
    With so much talk of Win10 updates breaking things, makes me reluctant to change.
    Sorry, this of course doesn't address your problem, but maybe this reinforces the idea that perhaps Win10 is the problem, and not CbB. 

    Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Roland Octacapture, Windows 7, i5 processor, 8 Gb RAM, X_Touch
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    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/24 18:07:45 (permalink)
    My X-Touch worked for a long time (I don't remember when I got it but at least 2 years ago). Then the problem started.  It could very well be a Windows update but Studio One 3 and Cubase LE do not have the problem.  Only Sonar/CbB has the problem.  

    "GCSG Productions"
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    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 10:33:03 (permalink)
    Where is "Azslow"?? 

    "GCSG Productions"
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    azslow3
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 12:10:48 (permalink)
    fireberd
    Where is "Azslow"??

    I am here. But I can not add much to what I have already written before:
    * Sonar/CbB identify MIDI devices by names and tries to match these strings to what Windows return. The list is saved in %APPDATA%\Cakewalk\<Sonar version>\TTSSEQ.INI
    When something is wrong here, the file should be deleted.
     
    * Sonar 2017+ has introduced a bug in the matching system. As the result, even when "Control Surfaces" preferences show correct ports, in practice Sonar can use other (wrong) ports to communicate with the device.
    That happens when TTSSEQ.INI information can not be matched with Windows information correctly, which in turn happens when:
    1) in Windows Device manager, MIDI section, there are "bad" devices. The whole list can be seen only with "list not connected devices option". It is better to remove all orphan entries and in case active device is not "1", delete and reinstall it (f.e. reconnected to different port, physically or logically, leaving orphan entry as "1" and thinking it is not the first such device in the system)
    2) there are devices which are not always connected when Sonar starts (sometimes that is ok, sometimes not). For troubleshooting, all MIDI devices mentioned in the Device Manager should be connected every time Sonar starts.
    3) (any) device randomly "re-connects", f.e. with USB power management enabled, bad cables, bad USB hubs, etc. Can be observed keeping the Device Manager running, it visually "updates" the whole list where some changes are spotted. Alternatively can be seen in logs (more tricky to find).  USB power management should be switched off for all music devices, most of them glitch with this setting on.
     
    * original Mackie Control plug-in requires 2 way communication present and working, it is stuck in "Connecting..." otherwise. My mod of this plug-in has "Disable handshake" option. That allows to check the Input from MCU (compatible) device is working, even in case the output is wrong. It also adds ProChannel EQ/Comp support and a workaround against Sonar crash in case MCU tries to control ProChannel Compressor (bug in Sonar).
     
    So, brute-force way:
    * delete TTSEQ.INI
    * delete all MIDI devices in the Device Manager (including hidden!)
    * switch off the computer
     
    Then, for testing, every time boot the computer only AFTER all MIDI devices are powered and switch them off only after the computer is switched off. Do not put the computer into sleep. Check that in such case everything is always stable. If it is, try to add "features" one by one (f.e. sleep/wake, turning the rack on/off when computer is working, etc.), several times checking that things are still working. Till the reason is found...
     

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    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 12:29:09 (permalink)
    Thanks for the info on the TTSSEQ.INI.  I'll try that first. 
    I've tried the delete all MIDI devices and that never helped.
     

    "GCSG Productions"
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    pwalpwal
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 12:31:21 (permalink)
    i'm surprised to hear they use string comparisons of device names

    just a sec

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    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 13:14:04 (permalink)
    Deleting all the TSSEQ entries did not help. 
    When I opened Sonar, the X-Touch was listed but not selected as a MIDI Device.  However,  it was still shown as a control surface.  I still had to delete and re-add the Mackie to make it work in Sonar.
     
     

    "GCSG Productions"
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    ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release
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    azslow3
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 14:31:24 (permalink)
    When you delete TTSSEQ.INI, you delete MIDI configuration in Sonar. So you have to enable MIDI IO again and assign ports to surfaces. Note that you can change ports of MackieControl, I mean without remove/add procedure.
    The question is how stable it is, I mean:
    * you delete TTSSEQ.INI, start Sonar, enable MIDI IO, assign to MackieControl, X-Touch works.
    * you stop Sonar, start Sonar again: is X-Touch still working?
    * if yes, you reboot the computer, start Sonar: is X-Touch still working?
    * if yes, you stop Sonar, switch off the Rack, switch on the Rack, start Sonar: is X-Touch still working?
    * if yes, you stop Sonar, wait 1 hour, start Sonar: is X-Touch still working?
    I mean we should identify what is triggering the bug in Sonar (no question that is a bug, but it is usually ineffective).
     
    Different question: which MIDI mode you are using in Sonar? They have recently added second mode... 

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    azslow3
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 14:39:39 (permalink)
    pwalpwal
    i'm surprised to hear they use string comparisons of device names

    They are using the same in Project files. But that was also never working as soon as something is changed. They have tried to improve, in project files and in Sonar, with the result they have made it worse in Sonar and still nothing works for projects. I have hard time to believe they do not know what they are doing, but the result looks exactly like that is the case...
    In projects that can be problematic, if the engine does not support re-appeared MIDI devices on the fly that is hard to add correctly. But simple MIDI device list is too simple to make any mistake. Till they have a bug in corresponding list enumeration (from other users observation, Sonar in fact "shift" devices in the list by one).

    Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
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    optimus
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 16:39:35 (permalink)
    Man, I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Way over my pay scale 
     
    I just followed the instructions for setup I found on YouTube
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-8VO1vpc7U&list=RDl-8VO1vpc7U#t=506
     
    I guess I'm going to leave well enough alone.
     
    Fireberd, I really hope you can resolve your problem, because using the X-Touch is a really fine way
    to arrive at a final mix.
     

    Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Roland Octacapture, Windows 7, i5 processor, 8 Gb RAM, X_Touch
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    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 17:51:07 (permalink)
    The question is how stable it is, I mean:
    * you delete TTSSEQ.INI, start Sonar, enable MIDI IO, assign to MackieControl, X-Touch works.
    * you stop Sonar, start Sonar again: is X-Touch still working? - YES
    * if yes, you reboot the computer, start Sonar: is X-Touch still working? YES
    * if yes, you stop Sonar, switch off the Rack, switch on the Rack, start Sonar: is X-Touch still working? YES
    * if yes, you stop Sonar, wait 1 hour, start Sonar: is X-Touch still working?  YES
     
    "Yes" to all, now.  But it appeared to start working OK before and then went back to not working correctly.  
    After I deleted the TTSEQ.INI, started Sonar and deleted/added Makie control it was working.  Rack was powered off for over 1 hour.  Powered it on and tried it and OK.   I powered off the rack, restarted Windows 10, powered on the rack, started Sonar and it was OK.  I'll have to wait until tomorrow and try it.
     

    "GCSG Productions"
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    scook
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 18:03:25 (permalink)
    Next time, instead of deleting TTSSEQ.ini rename it. Having a "broken" TTSSEQ.ini to compare to a working file may help determine the cause of the problem. Also setting the file to read-only may  prevent the file from getting broken again.
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    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 19:34:59 (permalink)
    Deleting the TTSSEQ really didn't make a difference.  After the deletion I started Sonar Plat and it had the X-Touch listed as a Control Surface but still wasn't working.  I had to delete it and add a new Mackie control before it would work.  That is no different than what I had to do before deleting the TTSSEQ.  After getting it working in Sonar Plat I closed it and opened CbB and had to do the exact same thing to get it working.
     
    Its a "Sonar" problem (since Studio One 3 and Cubase LE do not have the problem). It had worked for a couple of years, thus suggesting if nothing has changed in how Sonar handles MIDI then something was changed in a Windows 10 update that only affected how Sonar handles these devices.  The Windows installed driver for the X-Touch is dated 9/28/17, V 10.0.16299.15

    "GCSG Productions"
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    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/25 21:44:42 (permalink)
    More info.  I booted into my Insider Preview version of Win 10 (dual boot with my production Win 10) which is V1803 Insider Preview 17134 (RS4 Release).  This is mostly what the Spring Creator's Upgrade is or will be (which has been delayed due to some "problems").
     
    When I powered on the rack, I saw a notice on the screen that it "installed" the X-Touch.  Thinking back, this is the first time I tried it on the Insider Preview since the last OS upgrade.  I started CbB and the X-Touch worked properly.  I looked at the Device Manager driver for the X-Touch and found there is a later Windows installed driver, V 10.0.17134 (the version on "regular" Win 10 as noted is V 10.0.16299.15).  Maybe this is the key?? as I was having the same problems with the Sonar and the X-Touch before the last OS upgrade (??). 

    "GCSG Productions"
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    azslow3
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/26 07:05:04 (permalink)
    I have the feeling the bug is Sonar can be triggered by the order of devices when it asks Windows for the list. When Windows re-install drivers, it can be the order is changed.
     
    I wish CW/Bandlab just fix that.

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    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/26 10:23:31 (permalink)
    I tried it this morning, PC was booted from power off over night.  Booted PC, powered on equipment rack (which includes the X-Touch) and then started CbB.  Same problem, I had to delete and add the X-Touch (Mackie Control) in the Control Surfaces section.
     
    However, I then booted to the Insider version and its still working OK there.
     
    So if its Windows causing the Sonar/CbB problem hopefully it will get fixed when the Spring Creator's upgrade (V1803) is finally issued.  The Insider version is 1803 and a later device driver.  
     
    I'll report back after Microsoft finally issues the Win 10 V1803 upgrade.  For now I know how to "fix" it when using Sonar/CbB.
     

    "GCSG Productions"
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    pwalpwal
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/26 10:35:37 (permalink)
    azslow3
    pwalpwal
    i'm surprised to hear they use string comparisons of device names

    They are using the same in Project files. But that was also never working as soon as something is changed. They have tried to improve, in project files and in Sonar, with the result they have made it worse in Sonar and still nothing works for projects. I have hard time to believe they do not know what they are doing, but the result looks exactly like that is the case...

     
    this week i had to explain to a developer why using string comparions on guids was a bad idea!
     

    In projects that can be problematic, if the engine does not support re-appeared MIDI devices on the fly that is hard to add correctly. But simple MIDI device list is too simple to make any mistake. Till they have a bug in corresponding list enumeration (from other users observation, Sonar in fact "shift" devices in the list by one).


    there does seem to be some confusion with 0- and 1-based arrays in there somewhere

    just a sec

    #18
    fireberd
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    Re: Cakewalk and Behringer X-Touch Problems. 2018/04/27 17:21:13 (permalink)
    According to an announcement on the tenforums.com, the delayed Win 10 Spring Creators upgrade will be available Monday, April 30.  Hopefully the new device driver version will fix this problem.
     

    "GCSG Productions"
    Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. 
    ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release
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