Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done.

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mobamoba
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 20:35:49 (permalink)
I'll toss in my half-cent: if Speedsoft isn't providing the 3.1 upgrade - either DXi or standalone - free of charge then why did Sonar issue a Vsampler 3.1 serial number? Dunno about the rest of you, but that what the sticker on my Sonar CD says.
#61
bpclark
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 21:00:36 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: mobamoba

I'll toss in my half-cent: if Speedsoft isn't providing the 3.1 upgrade - either DXi or standalone - free of charge then why did Sonar issue a Vsampler 3.1 serial number? Dunno about the rest of you, but that what the sticker on my Sonar CD says.



There is something weird about the version numbers on the CD. According to mine it's version 3.8.

Brett
#62
Poni
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 21:01:57 (permalink)
Speedsoft how does this DRC2 system work. Why is it so mysterious. Please enlighten us.
#63
CrayonJones
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 22:13:25 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Speedsoft
I think you and other people do a good job here in the forum helping the people that don't know how to do something. That's why a forum works. We have already spent many hours to get our own manual. No need to pay a third party at this time.




Hmm... well, isn't that special?
#64
harmony gardens
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 22:35:35 (permalink)
we went through all this with tassman, too. I wonder if they would be better off working out a discount for users for a full version, or labeling it as a special Sonar Edition. As much as I love Sonar, it is frustrating to wait for manuals, or wade through update, schemes. The Sonitus Plugs, are great. If all of their third party collaborations worked out that well, there would be many fewer complaints. I think we just want things to work, and not have to spend our time playing detective all the time. A good example is Revalver, available for Sonar users for a nice discount.
#65
new90
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 22:38:51 (permalink)
Man, I'm glad to see this thread. I just wasted about 4 hrs. trying to figure out how to work this damn sampler and couldn't believe there was no documentation considering the interface. I was thinking it was just me.
#66
Jim Wright
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 23:16:49 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: harmony gardens
we went through all this with tassman, too. I wonder if they would be better off working out a discount for users for a full version, or labeling it as a special Sonar Edition.

You mean discounted further from the $50 upgrade price? $50 is less than
any of their other upgrade prices (V2 Standard / Pro -> V3), and definitely cheaper than the $186 price of the non-upgrade version. (The full price used to be around $149, but the dollar has been nose-diving lately....).

S3 Pro has a number of extras over S3 Studio. Everyone has their favorites; for me, it was the Sonitus plug-ins (which I almost bought last year for $250+), and the mixer enhancements (per-channel EQ, assignable FX controls). The 'full' version of the Lex reverb and VSampler were great extras, but not the main draw, for me.

The Pro version cost me $80 more than the Studio version (I was a registered Sonar 2 XL customer). I got my money's worth with the Sonitus stuff alone -- then again, VSampler wasn't the main reason I sprang for 'Pro', and I'd probably be upset if it was. So I can understand other people being upset. On the other hand --- I liked VSampler well enough that I've paid the $50 upgrade fee to get the full version. (I did the same for DR-008; it's cool enough I wanted the latest version with all the bells, whistles, toms and cymbals -- not to mention a lot of great extra kits).

As much as I love Sonar, it is frustrating to wait for manuals, or wade through update, schemes.

Lack of a VSampler manual has been my biggest frustration with it. I've spent time with the online help (even generated a PDF with all the help text and graphics), but it's no substitute for a manual.

The Sonitus Plugs, are great. If all of their third party collaborations worked out that well, there would be many fewer complaints. I think we just want things to work, and not have to spend our time playing detective all the time. A good example is Revalver, available for Sonar users for a nice discount.


Absolutely. We all want things to 'just work' (you and me, the Bakers, Maz and Tom...). I feel really bummed when software I write has gremlins -- and worse when this causes problems for other people. (Entirely aside from getting my ears singed!).

Good communication is essential to keeping things from spiraling out of hand, and it was pretty lacking for a while. Missing information included the 'lite' nature of the S3 Pro version, available upgrade paths and costs, schedule for the manual (still listed as 'before the end of 2003' in the online help, even for version 3.04!).

Communication is better now. The limitations of the bundled 'OEM' version are known, the upgrade path is clear, and Tom is actively engaged in this forum. I do expect the manual to be out fairly soon (or I wouldn't have paid $50 to get the full version). And VSampler is really pretty cool, once you get to know it and learn how it likes to work.

Which is not to say people shouldn't be ticked off, especially if VSampler was the main reason they sprung for S3 Pro. But I do think the situation is getting better, and I'm still glad to have VSampler to use.

Just my 0.02 --

Jim

(former full-time music software developer, revivified musician, sympathetic to both sides).
#67
Jim Wright
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 23:27:28 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: new90

Man, I'm glad to see this thread. I just wasted about 4 hrs. trying to figure out how to work this damn sampler and couldn't believe there was no documentation considering the interface. I was thinking it was just me.

No, you have lots of company!

There's a lot of stuff in the online help: you have to dig for it, but it's there. Many of the help graphics have 'hidden' popups explanining what things do. The help is poorly indexed, but there's actually quite a lot of text hidden in various help pages, accessible by clicking on graphics hotspots.

One user put together a video tutorial, which you can get from the Maz VSampler FAQ Page -- scroll down to the bottom, under FAQ item 2, along with some other docs. These are not a substitute for a manual, but they're way better than nothing. You can also ask questions (and read previous answers) in the VSampler Forum.

Hope this helps --

Jim
#68
new90
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/05 23:35:52 (permalink)
Awesome, thanks.
#69
CrayonJones
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 05:04:31 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Jim Wright

There's a lot of stuff in the online help: you have to dig for it, but it's there. Many of the help graphics have 'hidden' popups explanining what things do. The help is poorly indexed, but there's actually quite a lot of text hidden in various help pages, accessible by clicking on graphics hotspots.


There's also the "bubble help," under the main Help menu, that pops up an explanation when you click on a control. It's actually pretty useful. But for some reason the Ctrl-F1 shortcut key isn't working for me... in fact, most of the keyboard shortcuts for the menu commands aren't working... or is that just my system for some reason? Or maybe it's because it's the DX version....? Anyone else notice that?

Also, I find that the VS 3.1 beta is more stable than the previous version, and possibly a little less quicky. I'm using it with Sonar 3.1.1.
< Message edited by CrayonJones -- 2/6/2004 5:07:57 AM >
#70
adrian.crossan
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 05:37:28 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: mobamoba

I'll toss in my half-cent: if Speedsoft isn't providing the 3.1 upgrade - either DXi or standalone - free of charge then why did Sonar issue a Vsampler 3.1 serial number? Dunno about the rest of you, but that what the sticker on my Sonar CD says.


3.1! Ha, that's nothing. It says 3.7 on mine.

Not quite up to 3.8 though... just seen other message
< Message edited by adrian.crossan -- 2/6/2004 10:39:43 AM >
#71
Poni
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 05:51:27 (permalink)
As much as I love the Sonitus plugins I have to say that I don't think that you can compare them with Vsampler. Vsampler has on going development where Sonitus development is dead, there will be no updates to try to whine out of that company for free.
< Message edited by Poni -- 2/6/2004 5:52:10 AM >
#72
Boom_Bap
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 06:07:26 (permalink)
Absolutely ridiculous...
#73
adrian.crossan
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 06:12:38 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Poni

As much as I love the Sonitus plugins I have to say that I don't think that you can compare them with Vsampler. Vsampler has on going development where Sonitus development is dead, there will be no updates to try to whine out of that company for free.


Cakewalk acquired them, didn't they? Any update will come from Cakewalk.
#74
Akshara
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 06:21:31 (permalink)
there will be no updates to try to whine out of that company for free.

I don't believe calling the concerns and feelings from a large majority of S3P Vsampler users on this issue as "whining" is really appropriate. I've been very positive with Maz so far even with all the documentation and update problems; but it can't be ignored that an earlier version did have a beta test of disk streaming available to DXi users that was later removed, and then replaced as an add on cost. It's also extremely rare for companies to charge for incremental upgrades that were originally intended to be in the initial release.

The point is that this appears to be simply a business decision based on costs, and many of the DXi clients are feeling somewhat betrayed by this decision, which is understandably having a negative effect in the community. While I appreciate that microtuning and bugfixes are offered as a free upgrade, it feels a little like throwing scraps to the DXi customers, or that they aren't considered as "real" clients since they bought the program through Cakewalk.

It would have made more sense that Maz charge for updates related to the features not offered in the DXi version; but to instead penalize DXi customers by witholding added features not specifically related to the standalone version is just a bad decision. Disk streaming is not specifically related to any of the already present non-DXi features.

And don't forget... it is a beta feature of the product, which I can't justify investing another $50 for just yet. Even Tom says in this thread, "If DRC2 works like expected," which implies that it might not.

Throwing out the argument that the Producer version was worth Sonitus and the Console advances alone isn't fair, and perpetuates the subtle condescension that Vsampler DXi customers aren't real customers, which is simply not true. This whole issue is a good faith thing, not simply a bunch of people whining about an upgrade. And it looks to me from reading the forums here that this issue, combined with the documentation and copy protection problems, is having an unfortunate effect on Maz's reputation in the community, which is most likely the opposite of what they initially hoped for by partnering with Cakewalk. I mean this thread has already gotten almost 2500 hits, which puts it in the Top 25 all time read discussions on this forum.
< Message edited by Akshara -- 2/6/2004 6:30:38 AM >
#75
LixiSoft
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RE: whine and cheese 2004/02/06 06:34:39 (permalink)
I too was under the impression that Vsampler was going to have disk streaming included in the DXi upgrade path, and was disappointed to learn that to get the full functionality of the program I was going to have to invest another $50 on top of my initial investment.


I am pretty sure DISK STREAMING was part of the ad for S3P. It was one of my main reasons for getting the P edition, as I already had the Ultra Funk plugs.

LixiSoft
#76
Poni
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 07:33:36 (permalink)
I feel that the only mistake that Maz made was to not include a manual, this was a boneheaded move. As far as the copy protection, that was handled very quickly bravo to them. This is a very nice full featured sampler at a very nice price ( a steal for sonar3 owners) I just don't understand all fuss. And by the way this thread consists of 75 posts hardly a "large majority of S3P Vsampler users".
< Message edited by Poni -- 2/6/2004 7:56:44 AM >
#77
Akshara
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 07:39:50 (permalink)
And by the way this thread consists of 75 posts hardly a "large majority of S3P Vsampler users".

Usually one can look at a smaller community poll and find a pattern that relates to the larger community, like only testing your hearbeat for 10 seconds to get the average for a minute. In this thread the large majority of posts and opinions expressed are from people not happy about the situation, which is most likely representative of the larger community. And I was also referring to the many threads regarding Vsampler over the last several months that usually are poplulated with very upset people. I for haven't been one of them, and am not really that upset about it. I've just been pointing out to Tom at Speedsoft the rational behind a lot of what's going on here, since he seems to not quite get what all the fuss is about either.
#78
HammerHead
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 08:19:29 (permalink)
And by the way this thread consists of 75 posts hardly a "large majority of S3P Vsampler users".


76
#79
C Hudson
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 08:58:01 (permalink)
Let's look at the history of this thing

Cakewalk announces VS 3 will be included with sonar 3 PDR
people go to Maz and find a working beta of VS 3 that included disk streaming, or whatever they want to brand it
people preorder Sonar 3 PDR
people receive Sonar 3
a whole bunch of people could not even use the thing out of the box due to their copy protection
A bunch of people , not being familiar with VS, had no idea how to use it. Maz promised a manual "soon"
Maz fixed the registration issue that should not have been there in the first place by removing it.
still no manual , promised soon
still no manual, promissed before the end of the year ( 03)
We learn that Maz will not include the disk streaming to those of us that preordered Sonar based on the feature set they had in the beta. But if you pay them another 65 dollars they will give it to you, in a point release no less.
still no manual, promissed soon.

pathetic service and leading it's customers on with the carrot in front of them called " customer service"

VS3 is a nice sampler, the companies behind it though are truly disaponting.

Best

CH
#80
Poni
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 09:18:53 (permalink)
CH who is to blame here, Speedsoft or Cakewalk. Seems everyone is jumping down Speedsofts throat when Cake shipped it without a manual and with the protection scheme and probably fully aware of Speedsoft agenda. Maybe this ranting should be directed elsewhere.
< Message edited by Poni -- 2/6/2004 9:19:34 AM >
#81
Akshara
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 09:20:50 (permalink)
Maybe this ranting should be directed elsewhere.

Like on the Cakewalk Forum? Oh, that's where we are... my mistake.

#82
jackn2mpu
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 14:06:15 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Poni

CH who is to blame here, Speedsoft or Cakewalk. Seems everyone is jumping down Speedsofts throat when Cake shipped it without a manual and with the protection scheme and probably fully aware of Speedsoft agenda. Maybe this ranting should be directed elsewhere.


I think the major blame goes on to the shoulders of Speedsoft, with secondary to Cakewalk. You can't blame CW for maz not having a manual for the program. That's his fault. The CW blame is for allowing mixed copy protection schemes in ONE package. I mean, why not handle things with CW's scheme? Minor point since corrected, at least for new owners.

Jack
Qapla!
#83
blueturbit
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 14:36:31 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: jackn2mpu
I think the major blame goes...

Well that depends on a lot of things. We don't really know what kind of deal Cakewalk made? Perhaps they expected a manual of some sort with VSampler?
I don't see any posts from Cakewalk in this thread.
I don't see any VSampler tech tips offered by Cakewalk? Perhaps some basic guidelines to help get beyond the simple load a font or file into VSampler?
It seems to me a lot more could be done by all parties to resolve the manual issue. A few short tech tips would help a lot of users IMO, while we are waiting for the full manual to birth.
If the manual has been in the works for weeks now, what's wrong with posting part of it for download or preview in the meantime to help out many users who are having difficulty with VSampler? This does not seem like a bad idea to me? And likely would buffer the current mood against VS3 by many disappointed users, myself included. Sometimes a little common sense can work wonders.
< Message edited by blueturbit -- 2/6/2004 2:43:19 PM >
#84
Jim Wright
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 20:06:37 (permalink)
I respect everyone's viewpoint (and am also annoyed about the manual), but I'd just like to point out something about the update cost.

VSampler 3 "full" costs $186 at today's exchange rate.
The upgrade from the Sonar 3 OEM version to the full version costs $49.
That's a difference of $137.

As a Sonar 2.2 XL user, the difference between the S3 Pro and Studio upgrades was $80. ($179 vs. $99). If I had S2 standard rather than XL, the extra cost for the 'S3 Pro' upgrade would have been $130.

Assume I mostly cared about VSampler, rather than all the other 'Pro' goodies. As an XL user, I would have paid $80 to 'go Pro', and another $49 to upgrade to VSampler 3 Full, for a total of $129. Since VSampler Full normally goes for $186, I've just saved $57. Plus, I've gotten the Sonitus suite, the console enhancements, and the full version of the Lex 'verb. For free.

If I was upgrading from S2 regular to S3 Pro, I would only have "saved" $7 over the cost of buying VSampler 3 Full direct from Maz. But I still would have gotten the Sonitus suite, console enhancements etc. "for free".

I understand why many of the posters are upset; I want a usable manual too. I also think communication from the VSampler folks to the Cakewalk community could have been a lot better over the past few months. But Tom's hanging out on the forum now, and I expect the manual will be out soon.

Upset? Sure. Entitled to better support? Absolutely. But ripped-off, or price-gouged by Maz & SpeedSoft, on account of the $49 upgrade fee for the full version? Puh-leeze. Do the math. (If disk-streaming was promised as part of the OEM version, I might feel differently. But it's not mentioned in the S3 press release on Harmony Central, or anywhere else I could find. If there was such a promise in writing, somewhere along the line, perhaps someone could post a link and a copy of the actual text on this thread).

Just my 2 cents (or actually, $57.02) ---

Jim

Oh, one last point. I very much doubt the posters on this thread represent the majority of Sonar 3 users. People who are ticked off post messages; people who are satisfied spend their time making music instead. I would expect mostly-angry messages on this thread for that reason alone. I don't think anyone can draw conclusions about "the larger community" based on posts in this thread.
#85
CrayonJones
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 20:11:24 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Poni

I feel that the only mistake that Maz made was to not include a manual, this was a boneheaded move. As far as the copy protection, that was handled very quickly bravo to them. This is a very nice full featured sampler at a very nice price ( a steal for sonar3 owners) I just don't understand all fuss. And by the way this thread consists of 75 posts hardly a "large majority of S3P Vsampler users".


Hey Poni. I've been one of the "whinners" but the fact is, I more or less agree with you. I've also been using VSampler productively -- but not very efficiently. And that's the key issue for me. Probably more than half the time I've worked with VS (as opposed to when it's just playing) is spent in blind-mouse mode guessing how it might work, including some of its most essential basic functions.

This isn't "whinning" about a steep learning curve, which anyone working with DAWs and other serious apps is advised to learn to love. Time spent actually learning useful software -- and VSampler is without doubt useful -- isn't wasted. But it's another thing when most of the learning curve is spent puzzling through a highly idiosyncratic (read: poorly conceived) interface without access to accurate documentation. It gets hard to ignore this kind of hidden cost, and that's when you start "whinning" about paying for a mere point upgrade less than 6 months after the initial release. If you wanna call this asking for something for "free," then I suppose, technically, you're right.

The lack of documentation speaks directly to the value that's been delivered and not delivered. Maybe this is more speculative, but I also think it reflects on Speedsoft's ability to continue delivering value in future versions of VSampler. You correctly point out that buying the upgrade would help support Speedsoft, and normally I would like to do that. But that requires showing them the kind of good faith that requires good faith in return. And that's the real sticking point, not the $50, and not even the missing manual itself which, OK, they messed up on, but I'm confident they'll have it more or less "soon," I'll download it, and life will go on. Whether I'll be on the full upgrade path or just travelling the back road is less certain.

In good faith...

Ceej
#86
Bill OConnell
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 21:16:55 (permalink)
People who are ticked off post messages; people who are satisfied spend their time making music instead.



Oh jeez--my pet peeve. Here goes:

I hear the above more and more now from everybody, it seems.

Did God whisper this huge assumption into everyone's ear but mine?

It's like saying: "People who are sick are at the doctor's. All others are busy living happy, healthy lives."

Some people never post in forums. Some people tough it out themselves and never seek help. Some people just buy a different program and don't announce it.

The fact is we don't *know* what is going on with the huge number of people who never post on this forum, except for those with whom we are acquainted.

Nothing personal. Just had to get that off my chest. I feel better now. :-)

#87
Poni
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 21:29:23 (permalink)
CrayonJones there's no doubt that Maz blew it by not having a manual ready with the software, I don't think they'll ever make that mistake again. They could of at least put together something temporary to get people over the hump.
< Message edited by Poni -- 2/6/2004 9:30:26 PM >
#88
ghijkmnop
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 21:33:03 (permalink)
I hear the above more and more now from everybody, it seems.

The hard and fast marketing mantra is that for every one person who complains out loud, there is an average of 20 who are just as dissatisfied, but keep quiet.
#89
blueturbit
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RE: Cakewalk, do you think it's fair what vsampler has done. 2004/02/06 22:12:17 (permalink)
Yep this manual issue has been going on since early November? Quite a few more posts back then also.
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tm.asp?m=1421
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=5&p=57&tmode=1&smode=1

Did VSampler2 have a manual, it came out a couple years ago didn't it?

I went to a dealer to buy a recreation vehicle for camping and fishing and he told me for a couple thousand bucks extra he would sell me a better truck and throw in a boat with trailer and fully equipped tackle box.
"Wow, what a deal! I'll go for that. Sign me up bro!"
But when I got to the lake the boat wouldn't run. I tried everything to make the damn thing run, but I just couldn't figure it out. So I looked for the owner's manual. NOT!
Well, needless to say, although I had no problem with the truck and the trailer and the tackle gear, I found it somewhat disappointing that I had to paddle three miles to get to my favorite fishing spot.
I went back to the dealer and complained and he said
"What are you complaining about? You got the boat for a cheap price."
"Yeah but it won't run. I have to paddle. Do you have an owner's manual?" He did not answer me.
So I went to the boat manufacturer and he said: "No sweat, the manual is in the works at this very moment. You should have it by next weekend. BTW you do know that model won't run in a stream, just on a lake, cause it ain't fast enough. Look would you be interested in a streamlined version for another few hundred bucks? It runs much faster?"
I waited a few weeks and after many weekends paddling around on the lake there still is no manual in my glovebox.
So I told my neighbor about this situation and he said: "What are you complaining about? You got the boat real cheap didn't you? You should be happy. Everything else works fine don't it?"
I said: "Yeah, but it has no manual and I don't know how to use the damn thing. And the paddles are starting to complain."
So I asked another neighbor if he could help me figure out how to use the boat. And he said: "No problem. Let me see your owner's manual."
So now I am enjoying my truck, it cruises, and the trailer works great and the tackle gear is a piece of cake. But that damn boat is really a drag in the water. And I am really afraid to try it in a stream, that's for damn sure. God knows how much time that would cost me. Paddling in a stream without a manual. And I am doing plenty of fishing, but I ain't winning any tournaments because the guys with the manuals are winning.
And I don't want to complain anymore because everyone is telling me I should be happy, someday I will be able to run the boat too. Meantime, just piddle with the paddles. And don't complain. There are many boat owners paddling around and they aren't complaining.
Sigh. Wonder what it's like being up the creek without a paddle?
#90
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