Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adjuster) - is that normal?

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csnack
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2018/09/20 18:02:10 (permalink)

Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adjuster) - is that normal?

I've been reading up on gain vs volume and I have a somewhat decent grasp on the difference between the two, but I'm confused now as to what exactly that per track Gian knob is doing particularly when I have an amp sim on said track. On a track where I have a metal guitar tone going using Kazrog or BIAS, when I turn down Cakewalk's gain knob it does exactly what my guitar's vol pot does and decreases the distortion and "cleans up" the guitar's distorted tone just like the guitar's vol pot. Is this per track gain knob supposed to do that?

I guess I was under the impression--and what I've read--that that gain knob lets you fine tune a track to get it in that digital audio sweet spot typically w/ the faders @ zero so as to take advantage of the fader resolution you get around zero. But here that gain knob is not merely reducing level, but in the case w/ the amp sim on the track it is messing w/ the tonality of the sound itself and not just simply the level. This means that, in this case anyway w/ the amp sim on a track, I can't use that gain knob to merely adjust the level, at least not live on input.

This in turn had me concerned though that if I'm adjusting that gain knob on any other track, say a violin, that maybe that gain knob is messing w/ the tonality and strength of the signal, not just the level?

I suspect that gain knob may behave differently on that amp sim track if I were to bounce down that amp sim track w/ all the FX/sim down to an audio file so it'd then be just an audio clip and no live amp sim going - then maybe the Gian knob would function on that track like a level adjuster and nothing more?
Incidentally, what if I have a relatively loud track, is it OK to turn the gain knob on that track way down (past 9:00 if I had to), or should we try to minimize how much we turn the gain down (like we do w/ faders)? Please help me to understand what is going on w/ that Gain knob. Thanks so much.
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    Keni
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 18:05:05 (permalink)
    Gain is pre fx
    Volume is post fx...

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    #2
    csnack
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 18:32:47 (permalink)
    Thanks man yeah I get that, but it's the way the gain knob is behaving in this particular instance that's got me confused. I know the gain knob is not *supposed* to affect/adjust an incoming signal, but in this case it appears to be doing just that. Thanks
    #3
    Slugbaby
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 18:38:33 (permalink)
    It's doing what it's supposed to do. It's adjusting the volume before the signal gets to your amp sim.  This is exactly what your guitar's volume knob would do, and decrease the signal going to the amp.  Which under-drives it.

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    gswitz
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 18:39:03 (permalink)
    I use the output on the tube channel strip control to make minor global level adjustments.

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    a13xhp
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 18:39:15 (permalink)
    Because it behaves the same than lowering or raising the volume using the "gain" knob of your audio interface. It trims the volume before reaching the virtual faders.
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    stickman393
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 18:47:42 (permalink)
    It's totally working the way it is supposed to.
    #7
    bitflipper
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 19:14:29 (permalink)
    Gain does not itself alter tonality. But because it precedes the fx bin it will alter the tonality of any subsequent effects that are level-sensitive.
     
    That mainly includes plugins that produce distortion such as amp sims, exciters, tape sims, and in some cases compressors. Once you've dialed in your effects to taste, you'll want to then leave the Gain slider alone and use the Volume fader to adjust a track's level.


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    azslow3
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 19:52:27 (permalink)
    Keni
    Gain is pre fx
    Volume is post fx...

    +, the mathematic is exactly the same, the only difference is the place in the signal chain.
     
    But it is different from guitar pot and audio interface gain. They work in analog domain, prior digitization. Will all related consequences. Software "gain", as "volume", is working in digital domain. It is calculated with semi-infinite resolution, so you can set f.e. +18dB gain and then -18dB volume without consequences (try to do the same with pre-amp gain...).

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    chuckebaby
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/20 20:24:46 (permalink)
    Its possibly thee one thing I use the gain knob for. Amp sims.
    It allows you to hit the Amp sim hard on the gain to produce a hotter more realistic tube sound in some cases.
    Even though 99% of guitar sims have an input level that will do almost the same thing, Using the gain knob to hit your Amp sims harder can produce some desirable results.
     
    Long story short- Its working as intended.
     
    Think of gain as a knob (like a trim pot) to control your incoming signal similar to the way your guitars volume knob does. Pre FX.

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    tlw
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/21 04:04:54 (permalink)
    One thing the gain control does not do that a guitar volume pot does is affect tone. Rolling off the guitar volume will reduce the treble coming from the guitar a little. Unless the guitar has active pickups and an onboard preamp, that is.

    The capacitor+resistor “treble bleed ” circuit some guitars have across the volume pot to let some high frequencies pass unaffected by the volume pot can reduce this a bit but it still happens (and can be useful).

    The DAW gain control right at the “front” of the virtual channel is mostly for setting up the gain so the audio is at the desired level when it hits the first plugin/eq. If you’re working in 24bit+ (and who isn’t?) the track faders are fine for mixing purposes without quality loss.

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    Dave76
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/21 16:30:45 (permalink)
    Worth noting that the knob on a guitar doesn't actually do anything special to "clean up" the distortion. All it does is reduce the output level coming from the guitar, the same as the gain control does if you pull it down into the negatives. Turning up the gain control gets similar results as you would from putting a clean boost pedal in front of an amp or perhaps replacing your pickups with higher output pickups that sound essentially the same otherwise. 
     
    tlw's point is correct that the wiring of passive pickups also tends to bleed off some of the highs which helps to reduce some harshness but the main impact of the guitar's volume knob is the change in output level.
     
    What I like to do with amp sims is put an EQ first and then use the EQ's gain to control how hard I hit the simulated amp. By increasing the EQ output level/gain, I can simulate a guitar with hotter pickups. By decreasing the level and some treble, I can simulate rolling off the guitar's volume knob. This gives me the flexibility after the recording is done to play around with a hotter vs. tamer guitar tone without having to re-record with different guitar volume levels or a different guitar. 
     
    #12
    csnack
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    Re: Cakewalk's Gain Knob: It's acting like my guitar's vol. pot (i.e. not just a level adj 2018/09/22 15:27:38 (permalink)
    Thanks everyone, I learned a lot hearing how each of you uses the gain knob and that's a great idea Dave76 Thanks for the tip.
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