Can Cakewalk solve a problem out for Yamaha keyboard owners

I agree that CW should think about possible solution within there MIDI processing engine. For CW: the problem is that in case of Portamento Yamaha sends "Note Y On" event before "Note X Off" event, but both have the same time stamp. Since Sonar internally converts that into "Note X + duration", "Note Y", that information is lost and the output is "Note X Off", "Note Y On" and Portamento is not triggered.
 
That is more feature request, I guess they have no place to store such exceptions.
 
What we can do in the mean time is define MIDI FX (I have "AZ Lua" now, so that is a half an hour task, mostly to document the preset and upload it...). In such case you can just insert this MFX into the track in question and select required preset. The setup is saved within your project (as other FXes).Advantages over CAL solution: you do not need apply CAL on every MIDI clip, MFX will work automatically for all use cases, I mean live/recorded.
The only consequence is that I will need to occasionally extend by one tick notes which do not have to be extended (the explanation is too technical to write here). But I guess 1 tick longer notes (~0.001 of one beat duration) is impossible to notice (I repeat, that will rarely happened if at all).
Let me know what you think about such proposal.

Hi Azslow
 
What Is AZlua  --program language!!!!
 
I am no good at program language and limited in that department.
I thank you for your reply and all I know is if to advance notes a tick or a few ticks in event list the Portamento triggers.(manually editing)
The cal script file works when you apply it to a track and I am very grateful for the man who wrote it for me.(I think it advances all notes with a little written program which save you doing it manually)
I would of though cakewalk would fix things like this instead of giving us landr and free loops etc
If I sent them the Cal file would it not be easy for them to implement a permanent fix.
 
All the best
John

igiwigi

lfm
If you have the sysex in a bank that is triggered there are various settings for delays etc.
Not sure if this is used when embedding sysex in the track though - but it should if that is what you are doing.
 
Many sysex are composed of a range of such F0...F7 messages and may need proper delay in between for receiver to process and not loose some of them. Detailed midi specs for instrument often tell which is appropriate delay for processing a request. I've seen on Roland and Hammond etc.

All things work sending sys ex to the Tyros 5 ,but not Portamento for some reason (notes need to be advanced just a tick or two in event list to make it trigger) Slightly out of alignment In my language.
Mike bedeseem and Sea Gruff (Psr Tutorial site) solved the issue but Cakewalk needs to Implement the solution.

So if you have the sysex on a separate track and advance that x ticks earlier in time, it does not work?
You have a setting on midi track for time alignment which I use to line up rendered audio for external gear.

azslow3

lfm
So if you have the sysex on a separate track and advance that x ticks earlier in time, it does not work?
You have a setting on midi track for time alignment which I use to line up rendered audio for external gear.

OP problem has nothing to do with SysEx. The word was used several times, but the problem is with MIDI interpretation within Sonar (the explanation you can find in my previous post).
 

 
I see what you mean, that is quite another story.
A midi monitor like TenCrazy could tell the exact sequence of events:
http://www.tencrazy.com/gadgets/mfx/
 
As far as I recall CAL is never realtime, so another solution could be to use the Cockos ReaJS and JS scripting languange which also works in realtime. Not a MFX plugin, just VST, and can be routed through a separate track or with the new AUX+patch points more freely.
 
BlueCat Audio also has Plug'n Script which is VST only, but extensive scripting possible in realtime.
 

igiwigi
Hi
Sorry for Interupting here, but all this jargon confuses me.
Is there a simple way of cakewalk Implementing a script Into Sonar or am I a small percentage that nothing will be done.
I can use the cal script file  but It would be nice to see It In Sonar Instead of landr etc
Apologies to AZSLOW--You wrote the script for me!!! --Still a big thanks there and much appreciated
I suppose it is a dead end asking Cakewalk to look at this.!!.We can all live In hope!!

I do not know for what you decide to apologies... Leaving jargon for the following reply to lfm, let me ask you the question one more time (in shorter form): do you think inserting MFX (MIDI FX, the same procedure as putting VST into audio track FX bin) into the track in question can improve your framework over CAL solution?
If yes (which means you are ready and have some time to try that), I will prepare the preset. If no, lets wait for CW.
 
@lfm:
The problem origin is already understood. TenCrazy tools are in fact can help tracing, but that was already done.
 
"AZ Lua" is Sonar native version of "ReaJS", MIDI only and based on Lua instead of JavaScript. It works like Sonar own MIDI plug-ins, in realtime and as a processor. There are some general problems with DX based MIDI processing, so all such plug-ins have nasty limitations. Markleford (the author of TenCrazy plug-ins) has initiated related discussion more then 10 years ago. Unfortunately, nothing is changed since that time.
 
VST based MIDI processing in Sonar is hard to call a solution, it is dirty and error prone workaround (coming form the fact Sonar converts MIDI to/from DX based representation which is significantly different).
 
AUX + Patch points are not MIDI capable, I do not see how they can help in the area.
 

azslow3
 
"AZ Lua" is Sonar native version of "ReaJS", MIDI only and based on Lua instead of JavaScript. It works like Sonar own MIDI plug-ins, in realtime and as a processor. There are some general problems with DX based MIDI processing, so all such plug-ins have nasty limitations. Markleford (the author of TenCrazy plug-ins) has initiated related discussion more then 10 years ago. Unfortunately, nothing is changed since that time.
 
VST based MIDI processing in Sonar is hard to call a solution, it is dirty and error prone workaround (coming form the fact Sonar converts MIDI to/from DX based representation which is significantly different).
 

I had a feature request more than a year ago for ability to insert vst midi plugins(just using midi in and out) into MFX bays - to use many tools there are available today. It did not get much love though.
 
I mean audio plugin bays allow both DX based and VST plugins - why not for MFX(which is DX) also inserting VST stuff.
 
If I get the core of the problem - isn't there a risk altering this kind of Yamaha specific things into Sonar coding?
If you have to activate certain things through sysex to know it's active - even though there is midi controller for portamento - it could be part of preset in synth and not in midi events at all. Same with mono mode which seem to be the problem in this case.
 
Is it a INF definition for the Yamaha that is to fix this?
Ask synth for state to allow Sonar to make special treatment when portamento and mono mode?
 
My guess is that midi note on/off events are kept as recorded, and different edit situations pair them into note on with duration - and when saved into clip again they become separate note on/off events. So in this generating process - if doing in let's say midi note order they can make order of note offs and ons the same as recorded.
 
What you want is that for Sonar to ensure same sequence order as before editing then - on the same tick?
If a certain notes off was on same tick, but after another notes on - after editing they should have the same order - so portamento will work both upwards and downwards notes.
 
That would introduce a lot of extra processing and building tables for each tick which order was original or something - a table saying which order of notes at that particular tick. 
 
OP explained that this is only for Yamaha, and when portamento is on and when mono mode.
Otherwise fine.
 
Seems very specialized - and maybe a script handling this in realtime is way to go, still?
And you don't have to process every midi clip sending to the Yamaha.
 
As I recall from JS scripting of midi you can read out all events on that tick before sending any back.
So what script has to do is just send possible note off last on each tick - if I got the issue here. For portamento to work in mono synth need a note sounding so it becomes legato as I recall.
 But if this equally could cause other issues is quite possible - so I wonder if that should be the case on all midi. I mean combined with all kinds of controllers and notes on various synths - it could create more problems than it solves.
 
So possible solution might be INF file to Yamaha and do if certain criteria is filled.
 

AUX + Patch points are not MIDI capable, I do not see how they can help in the area.
 

A bit disappointing, I was thinking if activating membership again I would go Pro version to get Aux+Patchpoints. So midi is not part of it - not like Reaper does it then.
 
Either way - http://ddmf.eu Metaplugin is what I use to combine various VST midi plugins and routing midi to various softsynths loaded. But since external gear you can use midi out on Metaplugin combined with softsynths if you want to do that.
 
Metaplugin is also excellent if you want to get midi in through to out, since synths like Dimension Pro does not deliver anything on midi out. So you can chain inside Sonar in this way.
 
Bluecat Audio Patchwork would work too, I guess. Don't remember about midi out on that one.
 
Standard way of routing VSt midi plugins in Sonar has been to introduce an extra softsynth track and pick midi out from that as input to next synth or midi track.

Hi Azslow
Sorry for putting throught the pain again.
I will try your program tonight  and will report back when I have mastered the program.
Once again Thanks for all of your help and IFM for contributing.
Much appreciated.
 
all the best
John

Hi AZslow.
 
I get what you were on about now  and the program sits nicely In the Fx bin.
Imported the file for portamento through the manager and It works flawlessly on my Sonar Professional version.
I like tht better than the cal file.
I cannot thank you enough AZslow MASSIVE THANKS!!!
Why can't Cakewalk put these things in Instead of free loops ,llander and other superficial things???
All the best
John

Big Thanks AZslow,much appreciated.
 
All the best
John