Can We Define, "Professional," once and for all?...

So many posts (I see on this forum and others) where someone posts a simple problem, or worse yet, a problem that supposedly doesn't have a work around. Not because there is no work around, but because there is an entire new way of working that is superior in both quality and time taken, etc, and that they are unwilling to embrace... Of course when people start pointing simple stuff out, the complainer posts that they are a, "professional."
 
I move to impose a sanction that any so called "pros" that can't take a hint from other pros, are hereby not widening their minds/workflow, and are henceforth reduced to the official title of "amateurs," from here on out!!!
 
Until such time as they wise the f up!!! (f, of course stands for fun, or funyuns, or anything that doesn't rhyme with fluck)
 
All in favour? Or flavour? Or savour.. ing... of the flavour, say "Beeutch please!!!"
 
Seriously, call anyone out on being a supposed, "Pro," when they don't seem able to learn a 5 second task...
 
PS: On a great side note, two years ago I would speak of Sonar and people had heard of it but hadn't looked at it. Fast forward to the now and I have those same peeps asking me for program tips!
 
Hats off, Cake! Hats off indeed!!!

When someone attempts to use credentials to win an argument, it's a sign that their argument itself is flawed, and/or that they don't understand what they are talking about well enough to be able to argue about it.
 
It's also blatantly fallacious reasoning.

drewfx1
When someone attempts to use credentials to win an argument, it's a sign that their argument itself is flawed, and/or that they don't understand what they are talking about well enough to be able to argue about it.
 
It's also blatantly fallacious reasoning.

Sing it, Drewfx1!!!

Cactus Music
The only thing I get called pro for is  "Professional Driver" as I drive school bus and public transportation,,, So, do I dare let them know the truth? I really don't have a clue how the bus actually works, It just does.. If it doesn't, then I take it to the professional Mechanic. 

Of course this just created a new dimension where you actually know how the bus works and of course, creates an army to wipe out all unrepentant life as we know it... I wish I had paid so much more attention to the mechanical home economics portion of my scholastic juncture in life, but alas, I guess I'll be singing a death metal version of the 1918 song, "We're good and ****ed!"
 
Thanks, Cactus Music!

People have paid me to yell, stomp around, make various unholy noises and smash completely innocent inanimate objects.
 
People have bought little slices of plastic that seem to reproduce some of that racket when inserted into bizarre machines that could only have been invented by wizards.
 
People have not paid me to manually squish noises into those little discs of plastic to play in the scary wizard boxes.
 
Perhaps someday but if there is one thing I know it's this.
 
Never trust a wizard.

Sanderxpander
I agree in principle but not entirely. Sometimes there are subtle but profound differences in the suggested "solution" and I totally get people complaining about it. Saying they are a pro in my mind means that they have to work with it for 8 hours a day and depend on it to make a living. You simply care a lot more about little annoyances when in that position.

DAW operation is a side job for me, but as a professional keyboard player I definitely recognize this from that field.

Hey as a session singer I get it to a degree. I have stitched bits and pieces together like you wouldn't believe! And not because I can't sing those notes individually, but because doing all the notes in sequence and back ups, are physically impossible for one person.
 
I do not pretend there was no studio magic involved, in these cases !
 
I just feel that there has to be a point where we have to say, "You don't actually understand the process that you are invoking and therefor are just a regular schmo, so admit it!!!"
 
Complaining seems to only prove that you do not understand...
 
 

CakeAlexS
When someone attempts to use credentials to win an argument, it's a sign that their argument itself is flawed, and/or that they don't understand what they are talking about well enough to be able to argue about it.
 
I've been seeing too much of this lately over the last few weeks in these forums, which has put me into a foul mood with a couple of posters (well 2.5 posters to be precise) .
 
Nowadays "professional" seems to be a dirty word as nobody seems to know what it means any more. Programmes like "X-Factor" and "Pop Idol" are to blame in the sense that if you give it a go, you must be as good or better than professionals. The public just suck it in, the term "professional" ends up being watered down. There are real qualified professionals out there who have to compete with this lot, bands that have been playing for years in bars end up playing for free because quality no longer matters and other people will play any old crap for nothing. This is not just happening with the "music industry" (whatever that is), it's happening with professions across the board. People are now claiming they are software developers when clearly they don't even understand how a bug is defined for instance. They remind me of first year university/college students.
 
BTW my opinions are valid because I've decided to be a professional psychologist today, so all other counter arguments are invalid especially those who disprove my theories who aren't as important as me .

Temporary or not, it's valid!!!
 
Far too many claim professionalism as a shield, when their comments reveal that sometimes... They are less than beginners...

I wonder where the idea came from that pronouncing oneself as a "professional what ever" as in professional plumber somehow came into being? There is no such thing as a professional plumber. Its plumber only.
 
When someone works within an industry there are no professional unless they are lawyers or accountants in that industry otherwise they are all tradesmen. Even the CEO is a tradesmen. 
 
A person working as a mixer is a tradesmen not a professional.
 
With that I agree with Royal and what he wrote in the OP. I really liked DrewFX1's post too.    

appropriate

dubdisciple
Can We Define, "Professional," once and for all?

No. That definition is going to vary depending on person using it. For most coversations here itis pretty pointless and ties to marketing gibberish or people trying to make their opion sound more valid. I doubt anything we say in this thread will become official amd binding.

Oxford dictionary definition:
"Worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent, skilful, or assured".

Worthy = Done it for a while (not sure exactly how long that would be though, at least 3 years), and has a lot of experience.

Appropriate= Relevant. I might be a professional guitarist. That may make me a professional musician, but just because I'm a professional musician does not mean I can play drums professionally.

Skilful = Qualified academically or has something substantial to show for it.
 
Now you could be good at something, that doesn't necessarily mean you are a professional.
 
Please sign the dotted line :).

i think when people come on here and start spouting about being professional v's amateur , its cuz they are getting paid, or run a commercial studio, compared to someone who is trying to make it, but not getting paid, or run their studio as a business!!!

slartabartfast

A professional is someone who gets paid for doing the work that an amateur dose for nothing. There is an unfounded assumption that someone who gets paid spends more time at the job and hence becomes more proficient. Clearly that has never been the case, as the most accomplished amateurs are clearly more competent than the worst professionals.

 
Proves my point really, this definition totally flies in the face of the definition I quoted (as below). It ignores the skilful category of the definition. If you are not skilful you are not a professional regardless of whether you are getting paid or not. A person who is not accomplished or qualifed is not a professional they are just an amateur getting paid.... and that's the problem with today society. Todays society (mainly people who watch TV all the time) have been brainwashed into thinking skills don't matter, it's just getting paid. Getting society to think that you can be a professional with a lack of skills helps employers to keep the workforce wages down, and allows the rich to get richer, and the poorer to get poorer.
 
At this point I'm thinking for Bill Withers "Lovely Da.........y", whereupon the lyrics were altered to "Lovely Day, just got paid"....  The innocence of the lyric lost..
 

CakeAlexS
Oxford dictionary definition:
"Worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent, skilful, or assured".

Appropriate= Relevant. I might be a professional guitarist. That may make me a professional musician, but just because I'm a professional musician does not mean I can play drums professionally.

Skilful = Qualified academically or has something substantial to show for it.

A professional is someone who gets paid for doing the work that an amateur dose for nothing. There is an unfounded assumption that someone who gets paid spends more time at the job and hence becomes more proficient. Clearly that has never been the case, as the most accomplished amateurs are clearly more competent than the worst professionals.
 
So in effect you are saying only one part of the defintion
 
 
Clearly that has never been the case, as the most accomplished amateurs are clearly more competent than the worst professionals.

This brings me back to my watering down of the word, point in post #10.
 
You are entirely bypassing in my Oxford definition....
 
Skilful = Qualified academically or has something substantial to show for it.
 
This sort of opinion allows X-Factor, Pop-Idol, and cheap labour to thrive. Professionals are given a bad name, if you say you are a professional it's almost viewed with contempt.

There are people who get paid  (often too much) but do far less than a professional job. And there are people who don't get paid and do a very professional job. But there are also people who are skillful, get paid  (very well) and do a professional job, and quickly, all aspects. If you are lucky enough it can be producing music and doing what you love, which after all is the ideal situation.
 
You do get very proficient at doing things when working in a regular and professional capacity. But not mentioned here enough is doing a very skilled and professional job in very tight time frames. Most people here who are do a very professional job but not getting paid (ie more hobby etc) would flounder (and fail) under the tight timeframes.
 
For example when you are doing things like producing 20 minutes of music for a documentary for a 30 minute program and you often have only 3 to 4 days to do it. From ideas right through to professionally mixed and mastered cues. That takes some skill. You cannot wait for creativity to swing by in that situation. You just have to write and write well then and there and track and record and then mix and master. 5 minutes a day. Or do a full jingle in a day. Or a production library TAXI brief in one to two days max. Track and mix a band in 2 or 3 days. (from recording sessions to master)
 
Software shows up all sorts of issues when under stress and being driven by a power user. It is one of the reasons I use Studio One. (At the time I switched X1 was coming out and it did not do well under pressure, sorry but true, but I am sure X3 is up to the task although you never know until you drive these programs this way) Studio One excels under pressure. Never falls over, period.. It does huge amounts on the fly. More time on the music. No time for technical issues or software problems when working this way. It has to be all about the music and the music only. Decisions have to be made. Not a lot of time for procrastinating. You work out ways to get things done more quickly as well with work arounds etc.. The actual workaround process itself is not important, it is about what it is aiming to achieve.
 
You have also got to be extra careful with backing up and archiving working under pressure too. It is these situations that can cause failure in a project due to not being careful.

I can say I'm a professional. I stayed at a Holiday Inn Last night.

I stand on street corners...

You seem to have interpretted my point in reverse. I haven't seen anybody in this thread speak of the word 'amateur' in a negative light. I certainly never did, that would be rather snobby. However I have seen negative comments about 'professionals'. Says it all really doesn't it?

And yes amateur is a word to be celebrated, as well as 'skilled amateur' and it isn't used enough. Exactly the same with professional... And I stand by my opinion here as to what defines as pro.