Helpful ReplyCan somebody tell me why??....(annoyed)

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markyzno
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2012/08/16 18:18:32 (permalink)

Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed)

Why is it that every time Sonar X1 Producer Expanded crashes on a win 7 64 bit machine that after the crash it takes 20 mins for the Sonar.exe to kill so stopping you from restarting Sonar?

It doesn't matter what you are using when it crashes, why its crashed, whether its via Jbridge or Bit Bridge...

This has been seriously messing my workflow ever since I changed to X1....



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#1
bapu
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/16 18:24:25 (permalink)

FWIW,

If it were me I find the source of the crashes.
That seems far more important to me.

For me SONAR crashes once about every 1000 hours and I attribute it to the fact that I hardly ever shut down my DAW. But, when SONAR does crash I simply open the Task Manager and if SONARPDR.exe is running I manually kill it. I'm up in less than a minute.

I *never* blame SONAR for a crash out of the gate. I *always* assume it environmental first.
#2
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/16 18:32:20 (permalink)



FWIW,

If it were me I find the source of the crashes.
That seems far more important to me.

For me SONAR crashes once about every 1000 hours and I attribute it to the fact that I hardly ever shut down my DAW. But, when SONAR does crash I simply open the Task Manager and if SONARPDR.exe is running I manually kill it. I'm up in less than a minute.

I *never* blame SONAR for a crash out of the gate. I *always* assume it environmental first.


The crash could be anything, any number of reasons, could be using NI Komplete, or something In house like Dimension Pro, crash report is different every time but what remains constant is that I cant manually kill the Sonar process, it just stays there while it dumps for 20 mins then I can restart Sonar. Even a reboot will take 20 mins while Windows tries to kill Sonar itself. Its incredibly frustrating and has been going on ever since I bought X1 (never happened in Sonar 8.x)



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#3
Bub
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/16 18:50:06 (permalink)
Ya know ... the same thing used to happen to me.

Long story short ... I had to move my studio in to the basement for reasons beyond my control.

I've spent about 25 - 30 hours mixing, mastering, and mastering a CD last week.

Sonar crashed twice, which I think is great because I gave it one hell of a workout. Funny thing though, it crashed a lot more than that upstairs, and I saw the same problem of it sitting in memory after that crash for a very long time. I used to just reboot.

Now ... since I moved in the basement ... when Sonar crashed those two times, I was able to immediately restart it. The only time that ever happened previously was with X1 Original Release.

The only changes I made were, I moved my system to different outlets, my Yammy's are running through a high end line filter now, and my sound card is plugged in to a different USB port.

Try one of those things maybe?

I'll be scratching my head over this one for a very long time.

Good luck.

After reading markyzno's post, I remember now that both crashes I experienced were Dimension Pro related. So I guess 'technically' Sonar didn't crash, DimPro did.

For those following my saga ... moving to different outlets, filter on the Yammy's, and different USB port didn't help my Pro Channel on/off problem. God I hope X2 fixes that, but then again, how will I know? ;)

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#4
FastBikerBoy
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/16 18:50:49 (permalink)
I'm looking in to my crystal ball and I'll bet you have some m-audio drivers somewhere...... they don't release properly.


#5
Bub
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/16 18:54:21 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy

I'm looking in to my crystal ball and I'll bet you have some m-audio drivers somewhere...... they don't release properly.
Hey man ... nobody wants to hear about your prosthetic genitalia.




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#6
Crg
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/16 20:59:06 (permalink)
It's usually a peripheral device that won't close down, hence the m-audio driver mention. M-audio keyboard?, Midi router?, controller of some sort?

Craig DuBuc
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Michael Five
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/16 21:10:35 (permalink)
I'd think it's either what Craig said or dumping/error reporting. Run task manager and if you see a process called dumprep, kill it.

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stevec
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/16 21:32:24 (permalink)
This isn't a problem I've had, but I do remember hearing others had success with unplugging MIDI devices when the sonar.exe would hang.
 

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#9
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 04:52:13 (permalink)
Mr FastBikerBoy......

Yes, dreaded M-Audio....Thats probably it. I used to have an Emu 1820m with my old Sonar and a year ago it died after many years of good service and bought a Delta 1010.....

Aggghhh, this has got to be it.

I've tried rolling back to different drivers due to other M-Audio bugs (not being able to work in different sample rates and other nasties) but this problem persists....

So it leads on to another question/problem which I fear is unresolvable.

Is there a 64 bit win 7 M-Audio driver that actually works for the Delta series?

Will Sonar X2 help with this at all? (Which I will upgrade to anyway as its looking tasty)

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#10
FastBikerBoy
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 05:20:06 (permalink)
No consolation I know but I have a MIDISPORT 4x4 that causes the same issue. When Sonar exits this leaves things hanging.

I'm too tight to buy a replacement so put up with it. It only affects me if I close and then want to restart Sonar at which point a reboot is quicker than waiting for all the process tree to close.

#11
Jason Gray
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 05:45:14 (permalink)
My m-audio fast track pro has problems after crashes sonar can fail to close down or resart their after , all you can do is open open task manager and close down their, that way you can restart sonar.

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#12
mattplaysguitar
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 05:57:03 (permalink)
I got an Edirol UA-25EX, and it's happened to me a few times too, so it ain't just m-audio! Using Korg MIDI controllers.

I just restart my computer after about 30 seconds of loud cursing.

Been clean for a month ish now, touch wood.


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#13
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 06:44:30 (permalink)
Man this problem sucks satans balls.

It really messes with your workflow...I'm in constant fear of losing an idea so saving is always at the forefront of my mind and its sods law that this always happens when you let your guard down and then crash then lose momentum then lose a minute off your life swearing a tirade of abuse at whatever is closest to cuss or throw things at.

There *MUST* be a solution to this problem?

Surely?



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#14
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 06:46:42 (permalink)
Killing Dumprep doesnt work.......

Nor Sonar.exe

Nor Jbridge or Bitbridge....

I reckon the next step will be to kill the windows audio service in services and see if that free's up Sonar.exe to dump properly....

I curse the day I bought a Delta 1010.
Michael Five


I'd think it's either what Craig said or dumping/error reporting. Run task manager and if you see a process called dumprep, kill it.




Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

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#15
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 06:59:09 (permalink)
Heres something interesting. Some splurge from the M-Audio site on the latest Win 7 64 bit driver ......

"Known Issue: Several Avid Community Forum members and Beta testers have reported an issue where after 3 hours of continuous streaming, audio output will not function when an application such as Windows Media player is paused, stopped or closed. We have been unable to reproduce this issue internally. The known workaround is to restart Windows Audio Service. Press Ctrl+Shift+Esc and select the Processes Tab. Right-click Audiosrv and choose stop. Then right-click it again and choose to start the service."


Now, We dont use Avid obviously but this does relate to another bug I found with the M-Audio Driver. If I am using You Tube in a browser then switch to Win Media Player randomly the windows Audio Service will die and therefore all audio is killed with no error reported. The only way to get audio back is to shut down the browser and Media player, kill the Win Audio service and restart the apps. This brings back the audio functionality.

So......Putting two and two together, maybe this is the root of the same problem that happens in Sonar with the M-Audio driver.

I shall go away and try and get Sonar to hang and report back.

Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

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#16
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 07:15:21 (permalink)
Well, that took me 3 minutes to get Sonar to crash. All I did was browse 3 drum loops from Dimension Pro x64 then bingo, crash.

Tried stopping and starting windows audio service then killing Sonar.exe.

Tried stopping win audio service and killing sonar.exe

no dumprep to kill.

tried killing the delta1010 and then sonar.exe.

tried a combo of above.

Nothing.

This is killing me as Sonar is becoming unusable.

Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

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#17
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 07:20:28 (permalink)
Now just tried Dim pro x 64 again with no midi, this time triggering loops from Piano Roll.

Same thing.

Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

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#18
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 07:33:06 (permalink)
Now I have found in all this that Dimension Pro x64 HATES Ni kontakt 5.

DPro will run fine without Kontakt running. Start Kontakt and Dpro crashes.

Bloody hell, how many bugs can I find in one day?

.....and Sonar still takes 20 mins to dump.

Problem signature:
  Problem Event Name: AppHangB1
  Application Name: SONARPDR.exe
  Application Version: 18.1.5.535
  Application Timestamp: 4f4d5612
  Hang Signature: 3697
  Hang Type: 0
  OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.1
  Locale ID: 2057
  Additional Hang Signature 1: 369755040bf2bd91936b02086d95ceec
  Additional Hang Signature 2: 1c73
  Additional Hang Signature 3: 1c736b8dd41a4e480ca6020c475a3fa6
  Additional Hang Signature 4: 3697
  Additional Hang Signature 5: 369755040bf2bd91936b02086d95ceec
  Additional Hang Signature 6: 1c73
  Additional Hang Signature 7: 1c736b8dd41a4e480ca6020c475a3fa6



Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

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#19
Guitarhacker
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 07:55:45 (permalink)
20 minutes to dump..... 

faster to do a computer restart.... no?   (force close)

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#20
lampoonland
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 08:06:36 (permalink)
I'm having the same problem with Dimension Pro X64 crashing  Sonar.
I have to reboot in order to be able to start Sonar again.
At first I thought it was some kind of midi streaming issue as I was using my old Yamaha QY700 sequencer to trigger sounds from it.
  Now even just running Dim Pro and playing a patch from my keyboard causes Sonar to hang. 
Driving me nuts now,and making Dim Pro X64 totally unusable.


#21
Blogman
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 08:47:56 (permalink)
Next time it hangs try this: Instead of re-booting, LOG OFF, then log right back on. Sonar should start back then. Since X1, We've all had to figure out the fastest way to re-boot... stability is NOT X1's forte. 8.53 is still MUCH MUCH more solid and reliable.... (AND you can Still Fastbounce timecode based plugins in 8.53) Come on Bakers, you burnt the last Cake. Where's our much NEEDED X1 Exp E.
#22
vintagevibe
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 08:51:51 (permalink)
I have the same problem withe Quad Capture and Echo 8Pre drivers.  I usually have to reboot.
#23
vintagevibe
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 09:21:59 (permalink)
Guitarhacker


20 minutes to dump..... 



Maybe some bran would help.
#24
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 13:21:56 (permalink)
Yeah, logging off and on again obviously quickens it up but really doesn't address the issue, these bugs are seriously seriously draining my workflow and sapping my soul.... The last sound design project I worked on for a movie Sonar was hanging every 5 minutes, taking 20 mins to dump when I had a very tight deadline to make, it wasnt easy explaining to the Director or Producer about my woes and all I got back was "Why dont you switch to Pro tools?" which naturally made my blood boil even more!

Anyway, I digress.....

So it seems I have stumbled across 3 issues in this thread.

1. Why does Sonar take so long to dump regardless if its an M-Audio driver or not? (as others are pointing to in this thread) - Will this be addressed in X2?

2. Why is Dimension Pro completely unstable if I am running anything non Sonar along side it? (i.e NI Kontakt 5) - Will this be addressed in X2?

3. When will M-Audio write some decent stable Win 7 64 bit drivers? (not aimed at Sonar obviously)

Also on a side note, Sonar no longer offers me any crash reports to send to the Tech Support team.....
Blogman


Next time it hangs try this: Instead of re-booting, LOG OFF, then log right back on. Sonar should start back then. Since X1, We've all had to figure out the fastest way to re-boot... stability is NOT X1's forte. 8.53 is still MUCH MUCH more solid and reliable.... (AND you can Still Fastbounce timecode based plugins in 8.53) Come on Bakers, you burnt the last Cake. Where's our much NEEDED X1 Exp E.




Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

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#25
Middleman
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 13:30:49 (permalink)
Using ASIO drivers here and crashes take about 5 minutes to clear.

Gear: A bunch of stuff.
#26
stevec
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 14:03:44 (permalink)
Mostly ASIO here, with an occasional WDM just to test the waters.   But TBH I haven't had a "hung" crash over the last two months with a Focusrite 18i6.  The only real issue I've had is when I use it's Mix Control software to tweak output settings while SONAR is still open - that's a hard driver lock-up that requires I unplug and replug the interface's AC.   I use the Scarlett for both audio and MIDI.
 
Markyzno, have you tried unplugging all MIDI devices when the SONAR.exe hangs?   I've definitely never had a hang like that since moving to Win7 about a year ago, but may have a few times over the years when using WinXP.  I think.  I recall reading other users here that were able to get around the long hang time by unplugging their MIDI devices, and I think I may have as well.   And on that WinXP system I was using a Roland VM3100, which coicidentally uses MAudio drivers.  
 

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#27
cornieleous
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 15:41:01 (permalink)
This issue always gets me fired up - Sonar is pathetic in this regard. I HATE when processes cannot be killed. This is usually due to Sonar waiting for a driver response that it will never get. If you find the culprit - usually from a MIDI or audio device - cycle its power and then you may be able to kill the Sonar process, or it will then eventually self terminate. There are quite a few programs that are MUCH more graceful than Sonar in this respect. Anytime it has been brought up - Noel and the gang have basically said its the "right way to do things" and its not their fault - even though the hardware in question is usually fine and it is Sonar that has decided to crash for no decent reason. Unfortunately while Cakewalk digs their heels in to follow some nameless standard - we deal with the consequences of their approach by waiting around all day to kill the process or having to mess with our hardware. Good robust engineering of any system takes into account flaws and works around them or adds redundancies/checks as a part of the design. But lately not at Cakewalk. I see a lot of "their way or the highway" in the last couple years. Judging by the "as intended" responses I get to most genuine bug reports, the way X1 was released with reduced features (that they will now sell back to us piece by piece) its seeming to me that Cakewalk will dictate to the customer what comprises a good DAW, and all we can do is vote with our wallets.
#28
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 17:13:17 (permalink)
I have tried having no MIDI plugged in as have read about this work around or cause but my Delta 1010 has only one midi controller keyboard plugged in which most of the time is never switched on....

stevec


Mostly ASIO here, with an occasional WDM just to test the waters.   But TBH I haven't had a "hung" crash over the last two months with a Focusrite 18i6.  The only real issue I've had is when I use it's Mix Control software to tweak output settings while SONAR is still open - that's a hard driver lock-up that requires I unplug and replug the interface's AC.   I use the Scarlett for both audio and MIDI.
 
Markyzno, have you tried unplugging all MIDI devices when the SONAR.exe hangs?   I've definitely never had a hang like that since moving to Win7 about a year ago, but may have a few times over the years when using WinXP.  I think.  I recall reading other users here that were able to get around the long hang time by unplugging their MIDI devices, and I think I may have as well.   And on that WinXP system I was using a Roland VM3100, which coicidentally uses MAudio drivers.  
 



Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

Sound Design on IMDB --
 
#29
markyzno
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Re:Can somebody tell me why??....(annoyed) 2012/08/17 17:31:40 (permalink)
Hi Cornelieus.... If you read above then yes, *I think* the root culprit in my case must be the pathetic M-Audio drivers but killing that process or power cycling or unplugging Midi does nothing.....( I have tried every possible sequence of killings to minimise away time from the DAW)

I have had so many different instances of Sonar crashing in different working environments (Live work, Sound Designing, Scoring) and I can root out the cause of the initial problem and usually find a work around......For example BITBRIDGE can be just AWFUL at handling 64 bit plugs like Guitar rig 4 or 5 (I bought JBridge to get around this), then I find that DPRO x 64 wont work correctly when Kontakt is running...then I find that Sonar hates anything more than 50 audio tracks in one of my sound design sessions with Guitar rig 5 FX running....blah blah blah I could go on.....BUT, the one stable across the board problem is this SONAR process not being able to be killed so I can dive straight back into a project with minimum fuss.

Cornelieus, I totally agree with your very valid point of other software having more grace in this respect. I use Adobe CS5 Premiere Pro and when it crashes it CRASHES, but I can kill the process in seconds and then can be straight back into a project without having to make a coffee, roll a cigarette pissed off to the maximum then come back into the studio having lost all creative flow, instinct and fluency.

I have been using Cakewalk all my producing life going back to the late 90's and have never experienced something as seriously and inherently wrong as I am finding with X1.

May I hope and pray that this is going to be addressed in X2. Its clear to me by digging around on the forum and the web that I am not alone with this issue.

Also please nobody tell me to go back to XP 32 bit Sonar 8.5 please (cue jokes)

Come on Cakewalk team, I am using a Delta 1010 on a 64 bit system with Quad core and 8gb of RAM, shed loads of HD space, dedicated audio drive blah blah...this simply SHOULD NOT be happening. It doesn't happen on any other bit of software.
cornieleous


This issue always gets me fired up - Sonar is pathetic in this regard. I HATE when processes cannot be killed. This is usually due to Sonar waiting for a driver response that it will never get. If you find the culprit - usually from a MIDI or audio device - cycle its power and then you may be able to kill the Sonar process, or it will then eventually self terminate. There are quite a few programs that are MUCH more graceful than Sonar in this respect. Anytime it has been brought up - Noel and the gang have basically said its the "right way to do things" and its not their fault - even though the hardware in question is usually fine and it is Sonar that has decided to crash for no decent reason. Unfortunately while Cakewalk digs their heels in to follow some nameless standard - we deal with the consequences of their approach by waiting around all day to kill the process or having to mess with our hardware. Good robust engineering of any system takes into account flaws and works around them or adds redundancies/checks as a part of the design. But lately not at Cakewalk. I see a lot of "their way or the highway" in the last couple years. Judging by the "as intended" responses I get to most genuine bug reports, the way X1 was released with reduced features (that they will now sell back to us piece by piece) its seeming to me that Cakewalk will dictate to the customer what comprises a good DAW, and all we can do is vote with our wallets.




Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

Sound Design on IMDB --
 
#30
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