Can someone explain what this graph means?

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Barczar
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2015/12/03 17:49:29 (permalink)

Can someone explain what this graph means?

I recently put up some acoustic treatment and would like to know if it made any improvement. I ran a measurement with the Room eq wizard and this is one of the charts. I don't know what I'm looking at. If someone could tell me how to read these things and what the target should look like. I know it's a snap shot, but any help would be great.
 
 
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post edited by Barczar - 2015/12/03 18:09:34

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 17:54:08 (permalink)
    upload the image to imgur and get the link code. Paste the link into the image box when replying/posting

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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 17:59:01 (permalink)
    It's up. Been awhile since I posted a pic.

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    slartabartfast
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 18:51:23 (permalink)
    The scale is pretty small, but it looks like Y-axis is dB and X-axis is frequency. So it looks like a frequency response graph. It depends on what you are measuring what it means. In a perfectly linear system a perfect white noise source with equal power at every frequency should produce a narrow horizontal band or straight line. Since your are measuring something about the room, then presumably variation from perfect should indicate differences due to loss of power in frequencies from absorption or increases in power of frequencies from phase reinforcements. The latter effect is very sensitive to microphone placement. Your measuring system should have some kind of instructions about what you should expect, but if the line is less jumpy and the range more narrow after treatment than before, that is probably an improvement. 
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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 19:10:08 (permalink)
    I believe this is a RTA graph of a sine sweep. Trying to figure out what this means for my room.

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    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 19:39:35 (permalink)
    The graph is simply showing how loud specific freqs are in the room.
    The low end < 300-400hz is due mostly to room geometry. There are free tools on the web to show what to expect for a given room's dimensions. Normally in something like a bedroom (< 2000 cu ft), you would see a few peaks in the low end for an untreated room. THe graph is not all that bad so I would assume you did something like corner traps. The high end is from reflections from surfaces. Moving the mic even an inch may change the high end response.
    If this is a control room, put the mic where your head would be while mixing and redo the test.
    Also, a real test needs a calibrated MIC and some of those dips are prob your MIC.
    It should be as flat as possible. Use a good condenser and not an SM-57.
    Dips mean that specic  graph freq is being absorbed. Peaks mean that freq is reinforced (reflected). Without more details I would guess you may need some more hi end treatment.
    The web is full of information about room acoustic treatment. 
    Google 'audio control room treatment' or 'audio studi0 design'.
     This is a good forum for acoustic design
    http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php.
       
    post edited by microapp - 2015/12/03 19:58:29

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 19:54:48 (permalink)
    In a nutshell, that graph shows a pretty nice room. But to be truly useful, you'll want to be looking at waterfall graphs, which the software can also provide. They've got some pretty good advice on their website.


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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 20:11:11 (permalink)
    Bitflipper, it was your post on RTA's that got me started in this. Great post by the way. I put up 2'x4' acoustic panels in my room. I put one on either side of my listening position using  a mirror to help with placement.. I also put one each behind my monitors. The mic I used for the test with the Room eq wizard was the condenser mic that came with the IK multimedia ARC 2. I have no base traps. The room seems a little small for them
     
     I'd like to compensate for the bass with the ARC 2 if I could.

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    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 20:29:41 (permalink)
    Here are some control room basic tips that you can do for cheap.
    Put the console desk at the end of the long axis of a rectangular room. It should be right in the center of that wall. If possible keep your monitors a foot or two from the wall. The farther from the wall, the less you will have bass issues when mixing. If you can, put the monitors in the wall inside a soffit (infinite baffle). The monitors should be at ear level and spaced apart approx the same distance that your head is to one of the monitors (equilateral triangle). Point the monitors at where your head normally is while mixing. Put some acoustic material or panels  on the left and right walls at ear level. Center the panels at a point on the wall where (from you mixing position) you could see the monitor tweeter in a mirror if it were placed at that point. Do the same for the ceiling positioned even with the side panels. You are eliminating  early relections (phasing issues and hi-end cancellations) by doing this. Build or buy some bass corner traps and put them in all four corners if possible but at a minimum in the corners next to the monitors. if you have a really live room you may want some panels on the rear wall and the side walls near the rear.
    If the room is un-carpeted you may want a throw rug or two on the floor and/or a few panels on the ceiling. 
    Google 'DIY bass traps' and 'DIY acoustic panels'.
     
     
     
    post edited by microapp - 2015/12/03 20:56:41

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    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 20:34:36 (permalink)
    Barczar
     I have no base traps. The room seems a little small for them
     
     I'd like to compensate for the bass with the ARC 2 if I could.


    From the graph, it looks like you need no bass traps which is surprising for a small room.  You did the proper thing with the panels (the mirror trick) except maybe one on the celing. Like I said, the graph is not terrible. How is the flutter echo and reverb time ? Clap your hands and listen.

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    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 20:42:10 (permalink)
    Hey Dave,
    TrueRTA does waterfalls ? I bought it a few years ago (and a calibrated MIC) but I do not remember a waterfall feature. I have not used it since I set up my room. I will have to dig it out and take another look.
    post edited by microapp - 2015/12/03 21:00:24

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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 20:50:42 (permalink)
    Microapp, Thanks for comments. I've done everything in your post but put anything on the ceiling. I have a drop ceiling with acoustical tiles. I thought that would be enough.
     
     As for the waterfall, I found the graph for that and will try to post it tomorrow. I'm heading to work.

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    Adq
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 22:58:32 (permalink)
    You graph starts from ~500Hz, as I can see, it is not right, the most problem interval is 0-500Hz.
    Also usually more smoothing is used for such graphs.
    You can find some tutorials how to use it.
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    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/03 23:09:19 (permalink)
    You are correct ADQ. The graph is so blurry I took the left few lines to be low-end octaves.
    So we do not really know what the low end looks like.
    I thought it was unusual for a small room with no traps.
     
    post edited by microapp - 2015/12/03 23:20:56

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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 08:14:54 (permalink)
    This is a spectrum from the sine wave sweep. Much bigger picture." />

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    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 16:56:59 (permalink)
    Barczar,
    This still looks OK down to 50Hz with the exception of a dip @ 85Hz. The uneven sub-bass is probably standing waves and also your speaker roll-off. You might be able to improve the sub-bass with traps but to do anything substantial you would prob need helmholtz resonators or mass panel resonators and not sure you would hear much diff.
    I know it seems counter-intuitive that absorbing bass could even out a dip in bass but in a small room the long lo freq waves produce nulls in certain areas. Absorbing these freqs reduces the standing waves and actually flattens the response at these freqs.
    The 85 hz dip is prob due to the room dims...hard to tell. If any of your wall to wall dims are 12-13 ft, this is possibly the cause of the 85 hz dip. Could move your desk a little out from the wall if this is the case...may help a little.Try moving the mic and retest before you go overboard though. You may get another dip. Small rooms are a pain.
    Overall this still looks good for a static test. I would say go make some music.
    post edited by microapp - 2015/12/04 17:20:31

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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 17:44:57 (permalink)
    Thanks Microapp, I really appreciate your input. You seem very knowledgeable on this subject. Do you think I can use my ARC 2 to correct for the rest of the bass deficiencies?

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    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 18:40:18 (permalink)
    Barczar,
    I took at look at the ARC2. I think it is primarily for mids and highs. I say this because they claim it corrects not just for mixing position but the entire room. This is not really possible for low freqs unless you have some device or means to sense your listening position in the room.
    THe fact that the ARC2 uses multiple position measurements in its correction algo is pretty slick. But still for lows, correction is not possible for the entire room at once.
    I do not recommend the old analog graphic EQ's to fix a room especially for mixing. THe phase issues inherent in the bandpass filters is usually worse than the problems with the room. Digital filters like in the ARC2 can eliminate these filter phase issues.
    I would say try it and let your ears be the judge. It could certainly help with highs and mids.
    I am interested in how works for you. Maybe you could keep us posted after you give it a spin .
     
     

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    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 18:49:33 (permalink)
    One more thought. Try the ARC2 with a few mixes and get them to where you are satisfied..  Make demos. Listen to the demos in as many places and on as many different playback devices as possible. Do your mixes sound good and consistent in all cases? 
    This is prob the most important determinant of how good your room is.
     
     
     
     

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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 19:18:54 (permalink)
    I'll try the ARC 2 and report back. I guess it wouldn't hurt.
     
     Thanks for your time and advice.
     
      BC

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    BobbyT
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 19:55:51 (permalink)
    also check the position of your sub in relationship to you satilite speakers,run another trace and see if that helps the low end in your room.also a good mic to use is the behringer ECM8000,check the phase on your subs then use ARC2 to clean up.
     
    Good Luck.
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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 20:40:34 (permalink)
    BobbyT, not using a sub at the moment. I've heard mixed reviews on the behringer ECM8000. The knock on these mics are that they're not calibrated correctly.

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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 20:43:05 (permalink)
    I've looked into subs but my room is 11.5' x 16'. Not sure if would help or hinder with those dimensions, width wise anyway.
     

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    David
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 21:13:05 (permalink)
    That really is pretty awesome for no bass traps .  Where you may have trouble mixing is in the 
    100-300 area where there are peaks close to 10 db high. I really doubt you need subs.
      Just worry about your room from 40Hz to  500
       Arc could help you in your trouble area but I would try some more bass traps in you corners first.
    but really I would have been very happy with that . 

    David F

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    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 21:48:30 (permalink)
    Hi David, thanks for comments. You know , the more I research room measurements, acoustic treatment, etc, the more I get confused. It's really helpful to get advice from people who know about such things in this forum. I've researched bass traps and some sites claim foam in the corners will not be effective in absorbing lower frequencies. Others claim they do. It's an expense I would rather not gamble with. Which is why I thought the ARC 2 in addition to the acoustic treatment would be enough. I'm encouraged by the comments about my results. I'm not looking for perfect, just something close to acceptable.

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    Paul P
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/04 23:05:57 (permalink)
     
    Room EQ Wizard will do waterfall graphs, which would be nice to see.
     
    I recommend you spend some time reading up on how to use it.  Maybe hang out a bit in the REQW home forum over at Home Theater Shack.
     
    The Studio building / acoustics forum is also I good place to spend some time.
     
    Acoustics is not a simple matter and will require a fair amount of study if you want to do it right.  Well, as right as possible in such a small room.  At least it's not square.
     
     
    post edited by Paul P - 2015/12/04 23:18:23

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    #26
    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/05 08:12:45 (permalink)
    Here is the waterfall graph. It reads at the bottom from 0 to 200hz.  Looks cool, have no clue how to read it." />

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    Paul P
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/05 11:33:23 (permalink)
    The overall outline at the back is the (sort of instantaneous ?) frequency response of your room (* at the position of your measurment mic *) and the mountains coming towards the front are how the various frequencies decay with time. The flat part at the front shows that your decays keep going longer than the 300ms shown on the graph.  You should probably up the depth scale to be greater than 300 to get a better picture.  You'll then see which frequencies may be resonating/ringing in your room (which may be happening above 200hz shown).
    There are a couple of nice dips in the frequency respone but there always will be and the most you can hope for is to reduce them as much as you can afford of energy, time and money.  Try moving your ear/mic position around and see how things change. 

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    #28
    microapp
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/05 22:43:57 (permalink)
    Yes, up the time scale > 300 ms so the ridges decay into the floor.
    Here is a perfect room waterfall. (Don't freak, no one ever gets even near this in reality).

    Ideally, the entire face of the mountain should fall off evenly as it moves toward you (out of the page). This means that all freqs in the room decay evenly. 
    The ridges and crevices on the mountain face are caused (mostly) by room modes. The modes are caused by standing wave peaks and nulls that I mentioned before and these are due to the dims between parallel walls and ceiling to floor. 
    If you add corner traps, some of the ridges would begin to smooth out... wall to celing corner traps would smooth yet more... wall to floor corner traps even more.
    The tricky part here if you overkill the low end traps and the lows decay faster than the mids/highs, the romm will be overly bright. If the highs/mids decay faster the room will be dull or dead.
    In your graph some of the freqs take longer to decay than the max of the test. This is why it looks like it was sliced at the front.
    If ridges extend really far forward, the room will boom at that freq. Crevices indicate that that freq will be deadened. 
    Rerun the test with the time scale lengthened until all the ridges decay into the floor and repost.
     
     
    post edited by microapp - 2015/12/05 23:16:26

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    #29
    Barczar
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    Re: Can someone explain what this graph means? 2015/12/06 04:33:01 (permalink)
    The waterfall i posted was slice from a bigger graph. I can try to post the whole thing.

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