Helpful ReplyCan you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn?

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The Maillard Reaction
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2012/05/22 06:55:13 (permalink)

Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn?


I don't know about you, but I've often thought that one of the foundational concepts of "craftsmanship" is that you constantly have to evaluate and then re-evaluate your workmanship.

That's how I do it.

Anybody else?




best regards,
mike




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Jonbouy
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:06:32 (permalink)
I'm learning new stuff daily.

"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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John T
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:10:16 (permalink)
Yes, I'm certain there are still many unexplored approaches to trolling. One could, if one were so inclined, make it a daily pursuit.

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Jonbouy
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:16:50 (permalink)
Just so we're clear, what IS your 'craft' exactly Mike?

And how does that square with your relish in demeaning the 'craft' of others?


post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/05/22 07:19:00

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trimph1
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:22:40 (permalink)
Weeelllll... 
In my occupation, healthcare, there is a constant need to upgrade my skill sets.  What is seen as useful one week may need further assessment a few months later...so one always needs to reassess what is going on in the field...


The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:36:29 (permalink)
Hi Triumph,
 I am not just thinking about new tech or new discoveries, but that is a powerful and compelling reason to keep a dialog about constant improvement in place.

 I am thinking about how I constantly re examine all aspects, even the basic stuff. It seems useful to keep ideas near the top of mind, so to speak.

 In other words, for me, I don't think craftsmanship is a process of acquiring skills and then taking them for granted. I think, for me, that craftsmanship is a process of constant re appraisal... from the ground up.
 
 I've found that, for me, if I forget to remind myself of some acquired skill or insight, that I will tend to marginalize or maybe even forget those considerations.

 I enjoy "craft" and I enjoy corresponding with others about the subject.

 Thanks for sharing.

 best regards,
mike

 

 


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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:38:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I'd turn the question around completely.

Is there ANY subject known to (or invented by) man in which 100% of all there is to know, is indeed known?

Probably not, IMHO



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John T
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:39:41 (permalink)
This is so transparent.

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Jonbouy
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:52:55 (permalink)
Herbert Spencer

When a man's knowledge is not in order, the more of it he has the greater will be his confusion.


"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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trimph1
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 07:56:56 (permalink)
@JohnT...you did notice my  , right?


I know that in Model Railroading there is quite a lot of 'craft' that goes into building a layout...and it always seems something needs upgrading at some point...





The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

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Guitarhacker
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 08:04:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
There are simply too many angles on any given craft, whether it's working with wood, metal or playing an instrument like guitar to even approach mastering it all. 

Andres Segovia for example was said by many to be a master of the guitar in his style...and there is no doubt that he was one of the  best. However, if you were to have asked him, he would probably have said that he was still just a student of the guitar..... and that was only one style that he was even close to being a master of. 

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guitarmikeh
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 08:06:09 (permalink)
John T


Yes, I'm certain there are still many unexplored approaches to trolling. One could, if one were so inclined, make it a daily pursuit.

Please, stop.








There's is always more to learn in every vocation. In every facet of life one can learn. One can learn from others as well as their own actions. Learn that some fights are better not fought. Learn to respect others views. I've learned that I am flawed, and no one is perfect. I have learned my actions affect others and the inverse is true. I have learned to give others the opportunity to do and be a better person, and ask for that same opportunity. Please someone, anyone learn from what I'm trying to say.


Ive learned there's is always a new moment and that moment is NOW.

I harbor no ill will towards any man.
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digi2ns
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 09:04:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
mike_mccue

the foundational concepts of "craftsmanship" is that you constantly have to evaluate and then re-evaluate
IMO  This is the only way to be in everything one does and this rule applies to anything and everything.
 
Process improvement is a wonderful thing 


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Jonbouy
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 09:32:46 (permalink)
I think it is a universal thing that pretty much everyone feels.

Whatever their chosen 'craft(s)'.

So Mike, sincere question so I'll repeat it, what is your 'craft'?
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/05/22 09:51:17

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In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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RabbitSeason
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 09:58:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I read somewhere that Neil Peart started taking drum lessons again.  This would have been sometime in the last 10 years.  You know, after Neil had already enjoyed a good 25-year run in Rush, and being largely regarded as one of the best drummers ever.

I took a lot of music lessons as a teenager (on alto sax), and I became decent.  Did well in some jazz competitions, won some local awards, nothing big.  But the driving force behind my efforts was "there's always someone better".  If you think you've reached the top, and you stop trying to improve, then game over.  You stagnate.

This would apply to any craft, wouldn't it?

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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 10:10:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Carl Palmer did exactly the same thing, albeit a bit earlier in his career, but it was still when he was enjoying global success with ELP & KC

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vanblah
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 10:13:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
In everything I do--music or life in general--I have found that the more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is to learn.  For me, the process goes in incremental leaps.  I'll learn something or figure something out and then build on that until it becomes second-nature.  Then it will be a short while until the next big revelation occurs. 
 
 
RabbitSeason

I read somewhere that Neil Peart started taking drum lessons again.  This would have been sometime in the last 10 years.  You know, after Neil had already enjoyed a good 25-year run in Rush, and being largely regarded as one of the best drummers ever.
 
 
A lot of the jazz guys who teach at the college where I work continue to take lessons.  It's the only way to guarantee that you will practice daily.  You have to have a drill sargeant, or at least someone to answer to, in order to force yourself to do it with that kind of dedication.   Deadlines are great motivators.
post edited by vanblah - 2012/05/22 10:16:31
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Jonbouy
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 10:40:30 (permalink)
A Man's reach should always outstretch his grasp.

"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 10:41:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
In my experience anyone can learn; from a complete beginner sometimes, even if that's only how to become a better teacher.
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 11:42:10 (permalink)
I read somewhere that Neil Peart started taking drum lessons again.  This would have been sometime in the last 10 years.  You know, after Neil had already enjoyed a good 25-year run in Rush, and being largely regarded as one of the best drummers ever.



I just watched a really, really long documentary from Neil Peart where he breaks down every song from their last tour and walks through how he came up with parts, how much time he put in to trying new things, and learning, learning learning.  


It was incredible to see a guy a sick as he is talking about how hard it was to play this part, or the difficulty he had in learning sections ect.  The amount of time he puts in to his drum parts is staggering.  Really makes you think about the actual question the op is asking.  It is pretty obvious the any real artist never stops learning.


This is the doc


http://www.amazon.com/Neil-Peart-Taking-Center-Stage/dp/B005BCADAY

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Alegria
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 19:05:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I read 2 distinct subjects in this question..., and then the undertone. The craft itself and what it has to offer (theory) and the mastery of the theory through practice (skills).

At a fixed point in time, a craft may seem to have a finite amount of theory to offer and some may feel that their is no more to learn, but can you say the same about the skills? And as your skills grow along with your understanding of the theory, wouldn't it be normal to touch/transform the theory with your own discoveries through practice, hence growing the theory further, where it may actually become a subset of the original craft demanding a new set of skills to master? Isn't this part of human nature, hard coded in our genes? I believe that if theirs no more room for learning/growth/renewal/reinvention or desire for such..., I might as well be dead.

On a more non-esoteric note, I practice my instruments on a daily basis (just about) and it's not easy. When I was much younger, it's something that I had to do, being completely helpless in the matter (discipline was not an issue). Now it's a different story. And it's not because I don't love doing the music, but I have to admit that the flame, even though still burning, is not burning as hot as it did many years ago. I cannot play the music if I don't feel it, and practice helps me in this regard. That's the motivation I use these days to discipline myself. I still feel that there's also lot's to learn, but in my case not enough time in this lifetime to even make a noticeable dent in the mastery of this craft. There's always going to be more to learn and through practice..., master. And besides, I have no doubts whatsoever, in my case at least, that the journey is the real challenge and reward, all at the same time.

On the undertone...

I do believe that whenever someone feels like theirs no more to learn (regardless of the craft), that it is simply due to the fact that the interest in that particular craft has dissipated/died, which is the case for many (and that's a sad state of affairs especially when so many years of effort have been invested in learning the skills). But that's a reality that some of us face, sometimes more than once in a lifetime. It's not a terminal condition. It's part of the renewal process which some of us have the chance to experience more often than others.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 20:03:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I used to be pretty good (well, I thought so, for a 16 year old) as a lead guitarist. I could play all but the hardest Metallica solos, and pretty much get through that solo note for note in Black Betty.

I then turned to acoustic and singing.

I can no longer play lead. I suck.

So conversely, you can not practise a craft for years and years and discover it's going to take years and years to get back to the level you were at when you were 16.

As my style of music has changed considerably, I don't feel the need so much to smash out trashing solos anymore, but it'd still be nice if I could do it. I guess it's a matter of learning what takes priority, cause there are just too many darn things in this world to learn AND to keep those skills for good. You can't possibly practise millions of skills every day to keep them all up to scratch. Sad but true.

Algeria, I like your dedication to practise. I'm struggling to just work on my singing every day, let alone all my instruments...


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backwoods
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 20:11:39 (permalink)
I learnt piano with a hard teacher who would on occasion rap my fingers with a ruler and all that malarkey. Endless scales, arpeggios to a metronome with great attention to fluidity etc. I know Hanon's 60 piano exercises back to front.

I took a few years off as a teenager and when I came back it was like I had never left off. 
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John T
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 20:53:14 (permalink)
Given the the OP is such a wanky rhetorical question, I feel justified in answering it in an equally sarcastic rhetorical manner. So here goes: "No, omniscience is not only possible, but inevitable". That's actually the only space for disagreement the question leaves. I think a space that small, that only allows for disagreement to be that utterly ludicrous, amounts to trolling, meself.

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trimph1
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/22 21:06:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I know what I need to work on.

Arranging!!! AAARRRAAAAGGH!!!!   

The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/23 00:15:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I've been a student of the recording arts and sciences for about 45 years now, and I predict that by this time next year I will have learned everything there is to be known about the subject.

Of course, I've been making that prediction for the past 40 years (the first 5 years I was sure I knew everything), but every year I have to push the target date back a little further. 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Philip
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/23 00:38:04 (permalink)
I count not myself to have apprehended but follow after that which has apprehended me ...

If the victory, prize, reward, etc. (in the craft) is 'won', let me follow the same rule.

Philip  
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Jonbouy
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/23 07:03:49 (permalink)
Philip


I count not myself to have apprehended but follow after that which has apprehended me ...

If the victory, prize, reward, etc. (in the craft) is 'won', let me follow the same rule.


Actually Philip that reminder has floored me.

Although I've guarded and tended many (and still squandered others) of the abundant gifts I have been given, gratitude has been the single most effective way of developing and sharing them.

Ego makes it easy to overlook the fact that these gifts have been freely given, and seduce me into thinking it's actually me that is the clever one.

The universal feeling that there is still more to learn is merely a spur, an invitation to find further grace.

Appreciation is a great word, meaning of course to gain in value, with interest.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/05/23 07:25:40

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In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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michaelhanson
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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/23 09:25:21 (permalink)
Although I've guarded and tended many (and still squandered others) of the abundant gifts I have been given, gratitude has been the single most effective way of developing and sharing them.

Ego makes it easy to overlook the fact that these gifts have been freely given, and seduce me into thinking it's actually me that is the clever one.

The universal feeling that there is still more to learn is merely a spur, an invitation to find further grace.

Appreciation is a great word, meaning of course to gain in value, with interest.

 
These are fantastic words to live by.  Could not agree with you more here Jonbouy.  Love you way with words.

Mike

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Re:Can you practice a craft for years and years and still feel like there is more to learn 2012/05/23 12:16:30 (permalink)
MakeShift


 
These are fantastic words to live by.  Could not agree with you more here Jonbouy.  Love you way with words.

Thanks Mike, again it's a great example of what Philip reminded me of.  I learned to read before school or my parents were able to provide any help.  Sometime around my 4th birthday I just started reading the newspaper aloud to my Father one morning.  He nearly fell off his chair...

I don't really know where all the good stuff comes from that's the truth...


"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles.
In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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