Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter?

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tonyzub999
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2017/08/15 15:22:27 (permalink)

Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter?

I’m getting very frustrated trying to connect my new Dell 5510 Mobile Workstation and my Focusrite  Liquid Saffire 56.  The laptop has a Thunderbolt 3 port.  It even has the little lightning bolt insignia.  The 56 uses Firewire connectors.  I checked with Focusrite support and they told me that I could use a Firewire 400 to 800 cable connected to a Apple Firewire to Thunderbolt 2 adaptor which is connected to a Thunderbolt 3 adaptor.  Well right now that doesn’t work.  The Dell is seeing the 2 adaptors, but not the device.  I checked with Focusrite support yesterday to see if there was any installation software besides the Mix Control.  He said no.  I already have the Saffire Mix Control 3.7 installed, but it says that there is no device connected.  The only other thing I can think of is that I am not sure whether I previously put the 56 in stand-alone mode.  If so, would that prevent the Mix Control from seeing the device?   I would really appreciate any advice.  I just want to start making music again, but this is sapping my creative drive bigtime.  Thanks for the therapy session.  
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    Mosvalve
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 17:56:25 (permalink)
    I don't know if this will help but with my Saffire 24 pro and pro 40 mixcontrol 3.7 didn't work good. Had simular problems. 3.4 always worked the best. I assume the Liquid 56 will work with 3.4. Worth a try if it's the drive causing the problem.

    BobV 
     
     
     
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    #2
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 17:57:50 (permalink)
    Thanks for the suggestion, I will try anything at this point.
    #3
    hbarton
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 20:53:21 (permalink)
    Hi,
     
    I have a 56 and it has been very reliable. When I was researching fire wire interfaces, I learned that the Texas Instruments chip set was the most reliable (might want to check that). There is a switch to set the L56 back to factory defaults from Mix Control, but since you can't see the unit, that will not help you - maybe Focusrite has a "back door" method for that and not sure if the stand alone mode will cause problems.
     
    Some thoughts:
     
    You might want to try to swap out the fire wire cable. I had a few times when the 56 did not connect and I found that restarting everything usually did the trick. Shut down the 56 and your PC then restart the 56, then the PC. If they talk, the FW active LED will illuminate green on the front of the 56 (right side - above the headphone pot). You also probably know that you should not pull the fire wire cable out of either the PC or 56 while they are on (shutdown everything first). Sorry if I am repeating something you already tired :-)
     
    Looks like you already checked with Focusrite, but there is also a troubleshooting guide for the 56 at:
    https://support.focusrite...-Troubleshooting-Guide
    #4
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 21:35:19 (permalink)
    Thanks, I will try a different cable, it's a generic. I can't really do anything about the chipset because it is a mobile workstation, so nothing is replaceable. I did try shutting everything down and restarting. What OS are you using, I'm using Windows 10 pro. Thanks for the suggestions.
    #5
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 21:38:16 (permalink)
    Mosvalve, I checked on the prior version of Mix Control, 3.4, but it didn't list windows 10 support. I'm using Win 10 pro. Will that work with 3.4?
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    fireberd
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 22:26:21 (permalink)
    I would say the problem is with the adapters rather than the Focusrite Mix Control.  If the device is not being recognized and installed by Windows, nothing else will work.
     
    Our resident DAW builder guru hopefully will chime in and set you straight with the adapters.  I recall something about only certain Apple approved adapters will work. 

    "GCSG Productions"
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    #7
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 22:31:59 (permalink)
    Fireberd thanks for the feedback and I appreciate any assistance you can give me. For the record of the adapters I'm using or actually Apple brand
    #8
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 22:33:51 (permalink)
    Also my laptop is recognizing both of the Apple adapters but it doesn't seem to go beyond that. In other words it's not seeing the device so I'm wondering if the firewire part of the connection is what it's not recognizing rather than the adaptors which it does see.
    #9
    hbarton
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/15 23:05:58 (permalink)
    Hi again,
     
    I am using Windows 10 pro too and generic fire wire board with the TI chip set (Asus motherboard - Intel Core i&-3770K CPU @ 3.5GHz) . I agree that it is probably the adapters.
     
    Couple of other thoughts - can you try another PC just to rule out the 56 or the cable? Also, do you have the latest fire wire drivers installed on the Dell?
     
    Hope it works out for you, the 56 is a great preamp !
    #10
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/16 01:02:06 (permalink)
    I updated windows, but I'm not sure about the firewire drivers. How do I do that? I might be able to use an old laptop with firewire to check the 56. It's so old that I'm not sure if it still works. That's what the Focusrite tech guy told me also, so your thinking is right. I do have a desktop that I might be able to stick an old firewire card in. I have both.

    I love computers when everything works, but they get real frustrating when they don't.
    #11
    hbarton
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/16 01:59:12 (permalink)
    Hi,
     
    I think you can get the latest Dell drivers from this site:
    http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/04/products/?app=drivers
     
    If it is an older machine, it might be good to just update everything that needs to be updated. It might take awhile and you might want to do a backup of everything you don't want to loose before you start updating the drivers. You should be able to check the driver versions from the Device Manager in Windows.
     
    I know what you mean about computers getting frustrating. I found the best way to not go crazy is to attack the problem one step at a time starting with the simple/easiest first - like the cable, then troubleshoot the drivers. If you can get the 56 working on another machine, that starts to point to the Dell laptop as the culprit.
     
    Take care! 
    #12
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/16 02:47:24 (permalink)
    Actually the laptop is new. But I will check for driver updates, thanks.
    #13
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/16 06:40:18 (permalink)
    If you have any other firewire device (like an old hard disk, or a digital video camera) that would also be good to try and see if the adapters are the issue.
    #14
    gswitz
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/16 17:58:53 (permalink)
    I bought a Focusrite and for a week or something it worked from my laptop. Then I updated the firmware. That broke the connect from the laptop and for a month worked with Focusrite to get it working. I ultimately returned it.

    I will say for the very short window in which it worked I was super impressed.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #15
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/16 23:08:44 (permalink)
    Thanks, I didn't think about going at it from that angle. I will try another device.
    #16
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/16 23:10:20 (permalink)
    Yes, I agree. I have used it before on my other computers and it is good, that's why I am working hard to try to get it working.
    #17
    gswitz
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/17 00:25:08 (permalink)
    I don't have any good advice.

    Try it from another machine.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #18
    Mosvalve
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/17 01:26:05 (permalink)
    tonyzub999
    Mosvalve, I checked on the prior version of Mix Control, 3.4, but it didn't list windows 10 support. I'm using Win 10 pro. Will that work with 3.4?

    I am running Win 7 so I don't know if it will work but at this point it can't hurt.

    BobV 
     
     
     
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    #19
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/17 13:58:46 (permalink)
    OK, so now I’m even a little more confused.  I am using Windows 10 pro which apparently doesn’t support firewire unless you manually install a legacy driver.   Focusrite support said that the Mix Control would add all the drivers needed to connect my Liquid Saffire 56, so I installed the program, but I'm not sure if that means the legacy driver. My new Dell Mobile Workstation 5510 has a Thunderbolt 3 port. The laptop is seeing the 2 adaptors, (Apple Firewire to Thunderbolt 2 and Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3) but not the device.   I have been told to update my Windows 10 OS, which I have done, SO, do I need to install the Windows 1394 legacy driver or not and if I manually install the driver, but it is already in the computer, will that hurt anything.   I feel like I need to be more of a computer engineer than musician.  Whew.  
     
    Thanks again for the help. 
    #20
    fireberd
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/17 15:10:35 (permalink)
    I have Win 10 Pro and a PCIe Firewire card with a T.I. chipset.  I am using the default driver that Windows installed and NOT the legacy driver.  My MOTU 896Mk3 Hybrid works perfectly with Firewire (or USB as it has both USB and Firewire capability).

    "GCSG Productions"
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    #21
    abacab
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/17 16:23:12 (permalink)
    I don't have any great answers, but because you are using outboard adapters, my guess would be that the adapters are changing the FireWire protocol before it reaches your PC.  So in that case, maybe your PC should be using a Thunderbolt driver internally that recognizes the protocol from the converter plugged directly into the PC.  I would think Focusrite support should be able to explain that part.
     
    If the protocol is Thunderbolt 3 when it reaches the PC, then the PC needs to support Thunderbolt 3, rather than FireWire. Hopefully your USB-C port is not carrying USB3.1, as that will not work.  You will need to have Thunderbolt 3 on the motherboard.
     
    What Jim R. has stated about Thunderbolt 3 on PC:
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3643037
     
    Don't assume that because a motherboard has USB-C port/s that it has Thunderbolt-3.
    USB-C can carry USB-3.1 or Thunderbolt-3.
    Had a guy call last week... and was actually arguing with me saying that Gigabyte had X299 motherboards (actually available) with Thunderbolt-3 on the motherboard.  This is not correct.  
    Gigabyte X299 motherboards have a USB-C port... but it's carrying USB-3.1.
    Gigabyte X299 motherboards can provide Thunderbolt-3 via an optional (not included) Thunderbolt-3 add-in-card.
     


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    #22
    abacab
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/17 16:33:16 (permalink)
    Another thought, is that if your PC has Thunderbolt 3 over USB-C, and it can see the adapters correctly, then the Focusrite software is probably not completing the connection.
     
    Maybe the suggestion to roll back to an earlier version is worth trying!

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    #23
    Base 57
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/17 17:05:36 (permalink)
    I hate to bring this up. I really hope it is not your problem. Please check the pro 24 again on another computer with a firewire port. I crapped out a Pro 24 DSP by inserting the 400 cable the wrong way. It is really easy to do. I feel stupid every time I think about it.
     
    edit- to add
    I replaced the Pro 24 DSP with a pro 24 and it does work with Thunderbolt through the Apple adapter without any additional drivers. 
     
    I have since upgraded to an Antelope interface.
    #24
    interpolated
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/17 17:40:11 (permalink)
    Apple have their ways of locking down even the wiring connections. 

    I have computer stuff.
     
    https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
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    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/18 11:47:32 (permalink)
    The problem is almost surely the adapters.
     
    We've had good luck with the Apple Thunderbolt-3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt adapter.
    In many different desktop and laptop configurations, it's always worked fine.
    That said, we haven't tested it with a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter.
     
    One other thing to keep in mind:
    Audio interfaces can be finicky about a particular Firewire controller.
    Some combinations work fine, others work with less than ideal performance, and some don't work at all (or cause complete instability)
     
    If you have the means, I'd test each stage.
    Using the Apple Thunderbolt-3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt adapter, test the Thunderbolt-3 port with a Thunderbolt-2 peripheral.  It's always worked for us... but there are reports of the Apple adapter not working properly with PCs.
    Once you've established Thunderbolt is actually working (peripherals are recognized and functioning as expected), then I'd try a Firewire peripheral.  A Firewire HD is a good choice... as they'll typically work with most Firewire controllers.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #26
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/18 12:38:49 (permalink)
    Thanks Jim. I really appreciate your expertise. Is there a way to check to see whether a Firewire driver is in the laptop and if so which one? I guess another more important question is whether I need a Firewire driver or whether the thunderbolt 3 is backward compatible. This is all way beyond technical knowledge.
    #27
    tonyzub999
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/18 12:43:52 (permalink)
    Fireberd, I thought Windows dropped support for Firewire. Did they add it back? I just read an article that said you had to install a legacy driver for FW support in Win 10.
    #28
    fireberd
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/18 12:50:35 (permalink)
    Firewire drivers are stock Microsoft/Windows. 
    The one Windows 10 Pro installed for my PCI firewire card as reported in the Device Manager is:
    Texas Instruments 1394 OHCI Compliant Host Controller
    Driver date is 6/21/2006 and Version 10.0.15.063.0
     
    It doesn't state "legacy" driver as I've seen in Win 7 and Win 8, but given the 2006 date it may still be the legacy driver.
     

    "GCSG Productions"
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    #29
    abacab
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    Re: Can you spare a little therapy for a struggling musician/audio engineer/songwriter? 2017/08/18 13:00:22 (permalink)
    tonyzub999
    Fireberd, I thought Windows dropped support for Firewire. Did they add it back? I just read an article that said you had to install a legacy driver for FW support in Win 10.



    I'm running FireWire in Windows 10 Pro x64 just fine here.  Just needed to add in a PCIe adapter for the port.  The driver is supplied by Microsoft for this version of Windows.
     
    But I really wonder if your PC is going to need to handle FireWire at all, at the end of that converter device chain.  It looks like you are trying to convert a FireWire audio interface to Thunderbolt 3 at the PC end.
     
    FireWire Audio <=====> Converters <=====> Thunderbolt 3 over USB-C (no FireWire port on PC)

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