Helpful ReplyCan't record automation on midi channel using volume fader!

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RogerPop
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2015/11/20 05:45:33 (permalink)

Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader!

I have Sonar 21.9.00 Build 40 Jamaica Plain 64-bit on Windows 7.
 
I can record automation (volume changes) with no problem on an audio track.
 
But with a midi track I haven't had any luck.
 
Through trial and error I've found that I can create an automation lane that controls volume on the relevant midi channel. I did this by adding a lane for "MIDI..." then choosing "Control", "7-Volume" and "Channel 4".
 
I can then use my mouse to add points and make the volume curve go up and down,  and when I play it back the volume of the track goes up and down (if automation read is enabled). So that works as expected, but I've gotta use my mouse to draw the automation curve for the volume.
 
What I'm trying to do is use the volume fader in the console to write this volume automation data during playback, just as I can for an audio channel. In the console in the "C" selection (right below the FX bin) I choose channel 4 for that track. Then I enable automation write and hit play. I move the fader up and down during playback and the volume goes up and down on that track, as expected. But when I hit stop ... there is no automation data ... just a flat line. When I play it back with automation read enabled the volume doesn't change.
 
What could I be doing wrong?
 
Thanks in advance for any help!
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 07:23:33 (permalink)
    Don't know, I have rarely, if ever, attempted to use CC7 for controlling volume, I always use the Audio track.
     
    Any reason you can't do this?

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    brundlefly
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 10:15:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/11/20 13:32:25
    Should work. I'm not seeing a problem, but I can't think what would interfere in your case. Am I understanding correctly that it's adding an automation envelope with a single starting node, but not writing any nodes after the first? Have you tried it with a new track or in a new project?
     
    P.S. That said, I second Colin's recommendation to automate audio volume instead. Some synths don't change volume smoothly in response to CC7, and all are limited to MIDI resolution of 0-127 across the whole dynamic range making zipper noise is more likely.
    post edited by brundlefly - 2015/11/20 10:39:08

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    RogerPop
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 15:52:36 (permalink)
    NEVER MIND! It only took me about two hours to realize that I had Punch In/Out enabled!!!
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    RogerPop
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 15:58:23 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey
    I have rarely, if ever, attempted to use CC7 for controlling volume, I always use the Audio track.
     
    Any reason you can't do this?



    I ended up using "Volume (default Ch. 1)" for controlling the volume of the midi track, because the audio track (the track with the midi symbol on top of a keyboard?) is handling multiple midi tracks. The synth I'm using is "ARIA Player (Multi)" and when I use the volume fader on that track it affects a dozen or so midi channels, all with different instruments (but same instance of the ARIA Player (Multi) soft synth) ... At least that's my interpretation of what's going on, but I could be wrong!
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    DRanck
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 16:03:23 (permalink)
    Did you insert Aria as a simple instrument track? You should be able to insert an instance of Aria with a separate audio track for each audio output.
    post edited by DRanck - 2015/11/20 16:14:30

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    RogerPop
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 16:57:42 (permalink)
    DRanck
    Did you insert Aria as a simple instrument track? You should be able to insert an instance of Aria with a separate audio track for each audio output.



    You're correct, I can do that. When I "Insert/Soft Synth" I have my choice of either "ARIA Player" or "ARIA Player (multi)". I think that if I used a separate "ARIA Player" for each instrument I would have an audio track for each midi instrument/channel. But I think I remember reading that performance was better if I had just one soft synth and used all 16 channels up before inserting a second one. I am using Garritan Personal Orchestra, by the way.
     
    In any case using "Volume (default Ch. 1)" for controlling the volume seems to be working fine (even though in this case it's on channel 4 not channel 1 ... I definitely don't completely understand how all this works together!)
     
    Thanks for your help and suggestions, by the way - it is appreciated!
    post edited by RogerPop - 2015/11/20 17:08:56
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    Beepster
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 17:07:03 (permalink)
    The volume fader on MIDI tracks in Sonar controls Velocity. Not volume. Edit: The striked out statement is untrue. The volume fader on a MIDI track controls CC values. The rest of what I posted is still something to consider.
     
    vvvvvvvvvv
     
    You need to use the "Instrument/Audio" output track of a MIDI track/synth for a proper volume automation.
     
    If you are using a SImple Instrument Track I think the fader may be a volume control (not velocity) but I don't use those so I don't know.
     
    Using MIDI CC volume is... well unnecessary and likely more convoluted/unreliable than just automating the volume on the track accepting the audio output(s) of your synth.
     
    You may also want to consider using the "Gain" knob or an empty FX Chain module's output control instead of your Volume fader. This leaves your fader free of automation and allows you to adjust overall level without mucking with the envelope.
     
    I may have misinterpreted the problem but it might point you to some more desirable solutions.
     
    Cheers.
    post edited by Beepster - 2015/11/20 17:38:00
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 17:18:35 (permalink)
    Beepster
    The volume fader on MIDI tracks in Sonar controls Velocity. Not volume.
     



    I'm afraid that's not accurate. MIDI Master Volume, CC7, controls the output level of the synth. The MIDI "Gain" widget (should more correctly be labeled Vel+) is Velocity Offset.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 17:24:57 (permalink)
    brundlefly
    Beepster
    The volume fader on MIDI tracks in Sonar controls Velocity. Not volume.
     



    I'm afraid that's not accurate. MIDI Master Volume, CC7, controls the output level of the synth. The MIDI "Gain" widget (should more correctly be labeled Vel+) is Velocity Offset.




    Ah... ya, sorry. You are correct. I knew that.
     
    Still likely better/more reliable to automate the audio/instrument track being fed by the synth instead of the roundabout CC way... n'est ce pas?
     
    That way you aren't relying on the variables of various synths. It's just a Sonar track fader each time... every time.
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    brundlefly
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 17:30:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RogerPop 2015/11/20 19:03:59
    RogerPop
    In any case using "Volume (default Ch. 1)" for controlling the volume seems to be working fine (even though in this case it's on channel 4 not channel 1 ... I definitely don't completely understand how all this works together!)



    I'm guessing you have a forced Output channel 4 set on the track which will rewrite the channel of the volume messages, regardless of what channel the envelope is set for. This is a pretty common way of managing channels these days. Most users record/draw all MIDI events as channel 1 throughout a project, and depend on the Output channel setting of the track to re-write everything when using a multitimbral synth. And every synth having its own virtual port makes it unnecessary to distinguish channels for non-multitimbral synths.

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    brundlefly
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 17:43:52 (permalink)
    Beepster
    brundlefly
    Beepster
    The volume fader on MIDI tracks in Sonar controls Velocity. Not volume.
     



    I'm afraid that's not accurate. MIDI Master Volume, CC7, controls the output level of the synth. The MIDI "Gain" widget (should more correctly be labeled Vel+) is Velocity Offset.




    Ah... ya, sorry. You are correct. I knew that.
     
    Still likely better/more reliable to automate the audio/instrument track being fed by the synth instead of the roundabout CC way... n'est ce pas?
     
    That way you aren't relying on the variables of various synths. It's just a Sonar track fader each time... every time.


    Yes, using audio/synth track volume is best, unless you want to emulate a performer's playing harder/softer, in which case Vel+ works better for synths programmed to change timbre/attack time etc. based on velocity.
     
    Aria Player doesn't pay much attention to velocity for the most part, though, so that's not relevant here. Just thought I'd mention it.
     
    Edit: I'm assuming the OP knows that with Aria it's intended that you'll primarily use Modulation (CC1) or Expression (CC11) to control performance dynamics within the upper limit set by Master Volume...?
     
     
    post edited by brundlefly - 2015/11/20 17:59:41

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    RogerPop
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 19:11:42 (permalink)
    Beepster
     
    RogerPop
    When I "Insert/Soft Synth" I have my choice of either "ARIA Player" or "ARIA Player (multi)". I think that if I used a separate "ARIA Player" for each instrument I would have an audio track for each midi instrument/channel. But I think I remember reading that performance was better if I had just one soft synth and used all 16 channels up before inserting a second one. I am using Garritan Personal Orchestra, by the way.

     
    Using MIDI CC volume is... well unnecessary and likely more convoluted/unreliable than just automating the volume on the track accepting the audio output(s) of your synth.
     

     
    I searched around a bit and apparently ARIA uses less memory if you have one soft synth instance for 16 midi instruments rather than 16 soft synths. That's what I'm doing now and I have just one audio channel to handle all 16 instruments coming back from ARIA. So ... I thought I was out of luck as far as being able to control individual volumes the way you suggest. However ... I saw discussions of how to setup ARIA to return each midi channel on different audio channels, so apparently I can have:
    • 1 ARAI soft synth "multi" player
    • 16 MIDI tracks
    • 1 stereo return audio channel (as I have now) - OR - 16 return stereo audio channels!
    So configuring ARIA with a separate audio channel/track output for each midi channel should allow me to have automation control using volume, as you suggest.
     
    Thanks for the advice and discussion - I learned a lot!
     
    -Roger
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    Beepster
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    Re: Can't record automation on midi channel using volume fader! 2015/11/20 19:49:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RogerPop 2015/11/20 23:07:51
    I don't own/use Aria but yeah... if it has independent outputs just insert a bunch of audio tracks and set the input of each to the outputs of the Aria player (it will show up under your track input options).
     
    You will of course have to setup Aria to actually output to each of those tracks. If it's like other synths that can usually be done in whatever mixer page the program has. Should be detailed in the manual... but it seems you figured it out already.
     
    If you've ever set up a multi output drum sampler like Session Drummer or Addictive Drums it's essentially the same deal.
     
    Next time what you can do though is when you insert the ARIA player using the "Insert Softsynth" dialog use the "All Outputs Stereo" or all "All Outputs Mono" options. That will automatically create and route all the audio tracks you need to cover the synths multi output.
     
    You'll still likely have to set the individual outputs TO those tracks inside the synth though but that's usually pretty easy.
     
    Cheers.
     
    PS: And this is one of the reasons the Simple Instrument Tracks option in Sonar kind of blows (which sounds like what you are using... it's the default Insert Soft Synth option). It's okay for quick mucking around or synths that only have a stereo output but I never use them due to the limitations.
    post edited by Beepster - 2015/11/20 20:01:53
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