Can't figure out which mixer to use

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Somanyquestions
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2017/09/29 08:54:43 (permalink)

Can't figure out which mixer to use

Hi everyone, great community here!
 
I've been using the full version of Sonar for a while now with just a DI (Octa Capture) for recording guitars.
However i'm upgrading to a full on "professional" studio. I'm reading and learning a lot but one thing i just can't figure out: the mixer.
 
Correct me if wrong, there are 3 types of mixers. Anolog, analog with usb/firewire, digital.
To make it easier, i won't go digital. Not my kind of thing.
 
So then i thought, let's go analog through USB but i keep reading how that won't let you record more than 2 tracks at the same time. And that's my biggest concern. I want to be able to record 24 tracks at the same time. Is this possible at all? Either through an analog mixer or analog with usb? Will Sonar handle this? Do i need a super computer for this?
 
Anybody who understands this better than me who can help me a out bit maybe?
 
Thank you so much!
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    synkrotron
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 11:37:23 (permalink)
    Hi and welcome to the Cakewalk forum

    I can only assume that you are reading about a specific mixer. That still surprises me though because recording two tracks only certainly isn't a limitation of USB.

    For instance, you mention the OCTA-CAPTURE, which I also use and you can record ten tracks simultaneously via its USB connection.

    What outboard mixers have you considered so far?

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    #2
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 11:55:29 (permalink)
    Hi, thanks.
     
    You're right about the Octa also being usb and being able to record multiple tracks. Maybe because i don't consider it a mixer i got confused. I read quite some (maybe old threads) on forums talking about usb mixers being limited to 2 channels at once.
     
    TBH i have no specific mixer in mind. I preferable would like to buy something 2nd hand. Anywhere from 500 to a 1000 dollars.
    #3
    fret_man
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 14:00:12 (permalink)
    Maybe a difference between USB1 on old mixers and USB2 on new mixers?
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    tlw
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 14:40:40 (permalink)
    The number of channels recordable at the same time from USB mixers varies deending on the mixer in question,

    Another option to a hardware mixer is something like an RME UFX plus one or two 8-channel ADAT units. That would give you up to 28 input channels, depending on sampling rate. RME's Totalmix software looks and feels like a multi-channel mixer because that's what it is. All faders and eq etc. can be accessed without menu diving.

    For a good analogue or digital mixer that has analogue "feel" SSL are worth a look.

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    #5
    AT
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 14:41:03 (permalink)
    USB 1 could barely handle stereo.  But USB2 can handle 16-24 realistically, and USB3 can do that and more with less latency.  So USB ain't the bottle neck.
     
    Some "USB" mixers simply send the mixer output to the USB output so you can capture that stereo mix to your computer - great for documenting rehearsals and recording shows but lacking when it comes to multitrack recording.  Other mixers can replace your interface and deliver 8-16+ tracks in and out of your computer.  That is more what you are looking for, if I'm interpreting your question right.  And a mixer can help if you are doing multitrack recording often.  Setting up mics and sending and bussing signals and headphone mixes is easier with the right board.  But  higher quality is usually available by buying a board and interface separately, although it can be cheaper to buy an all in one.  But there are compromises at the lowest end, such as USB 1 and other restraints that only become apparent once you start using that board.
     
    If you are using an octatrack you can simply add an analog board in front of it.  The roland has perfectly acceptable sound and you can get most of the benefits of a hardware board by simply finding one with direct outs and use that with the octocapture.  Unless you go with an extremely low end board you won't compromise your signals enough to matter and for band recording you can skip the latency of the Roland and SONAR by sending a speed of light signal from your analog board to the band while you worry about recording the proper signal.  That's what I'd do, if I'm reading you right.  I would not risk replacing my good interface with a cheap board with worse conversion and lesser pres (most likely) for a little convenience.  And remember, most pros choose separate hardware - I can't think of a new pro board/converter combo since Allen and Heath.

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    tlw
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 15:18:14 (permalink)
    Just a thought, but another way of interfacing a multi-channel interface and a mixer is using Mackie’s trick of partially inserting TR jacks into the channel inserts so they tap the insert signal without interrupting it so the mixer channel is still available for setting up the monitor/foldback mix.

    You do lose the ability to eq or use channel dynamics on the sends to the interface using that method though.

    I agree with AT about replacing an existing interface for one with poorer convertors or poorer quality supporting circuitry being less than the ideal road to go down.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 15:50:02 (permalink)
    There is a thread about the Soundcraft http://forum.cakewalk.com/Soundcraft-Signature-MTK-m3417894.aspx
     
    You'll see the OP gave up because the multitrack USB output was about half the level he desired. 
    I still like the features of that board over the similar Presonus studio live series. But for me it would be a live mixer first not a studio interface. Those 2 are Analog boards with USB multi channel interfaces. From there you get into digital boards which are better but not for everyone. Many require an iPad to run, I kind of want the physical faders to be there. 
    The one I was looking at for the studio because I felt the audio drivers would be a higher quality was a Motu interface. Either that of RME. You'll want to upgrade from the Roland if your going to have clients coming in.. I wouldn't trust one after the numerous threads with issues with drivers. 

    Johnny V  
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    #8
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 17:09:25 (permalink)
    Oh wow, this is a lot of information to go through. I appreciate the detailed replies and will go through them one by one, trying to understand them. Thanks so far, i will reply with probably some more questions :)
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    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 17:09:28 (permalink)
    Oh wow, this is a lot of information to go through. I appreciate the detailed replies and will go through them one by one, trying to understand them. Thanks so far, i will reply with probably some more questions :)
    #10
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 17:10:36 (permalink)
    tlw
    The number of channels recordable at the same time from USB mixers varies deending on the mixer in question,

    Another option to a hardware mixer is something like an RME UFX plus one or two 8-channel ADAT units. That would give you up to 28 input channels, depending on sampling rate. RME's Totalmix software looks and feels like a multi-channel mixer because that's what it is. All faders and eq etc. can be accessed without menu diving.

    For a good analogue or digital mixer that has analogue "feel" SSL are worth a look.



    Thanks but that looks crazy expensive.
    #11
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 17:14:23 (permalink)
    AT
    USB 1 could barely handle stereo.  But USB2 can handle 16-24 realistically, and USB3 can do that and more with less latency.  So USB ain't the bottle neck.
     

     
    I see. USB3 would be the way to go then.
     
    AT
    Some "USB" mixers simply send the mixer output to the USB output so you can capture that stereo mix to your computer - great for documenting rehearsals and recording shows but lacking when it comes to multitrack recording.  Other mixers can replace your interface and deliver 8-16+ tracks in and out of your computer.  That is more what you are looking for, if I'm interpreting your question right.  And a mixer can help if you are doing multitrack recording often.  Setting up mics and sending and bussing signals and headphone mixes is easier with the right board.  But  higher quality is usually available by buying a board and interface separately, although it can be cheaper to buy an all in one.  But there are compromises at the lowest end, such as USB 1 and other restraints that only become apparent once you start using that board.
     

     
    But are there mixers that can make me record 24 tracks at the same time in Sonar? I mean, do they exist at all?
    Am i asking something crazy? Unheard of? I just want a full band all mic'ed up to be able to record all tracks at the same time. I can't be the only person who wants this?
     
    AT
     
    If you are using an octatrack you can simply add an analog board in front of it.  The roland has perfectly acceptable sound and you can get most of the benefits of a hardware board by simply finding one with direct outs and use that with the octocapture.




    Sounds great but wouldn't i need 3 Octa Captures then?
     
    #12
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 17:17:20 (permalink)
    tlw
    Just a thought, but another way of interfacing a multi-channel interface and a mixer is using Mackie’s trick of partially inserting TR jacks into the channel inserts so they tap the insert signal without interrupting it so the mixer channel is still available for setting up the monitor/foldback mix.

    You do lose the ability to eq or use channel dynamics on the sends to the interface using that method though.

     
    Thanks but i probably won't go down that road.
     
    tlw
    I agree with AT about replacing an existing interface for one with poorer convertors or poorer quality supporting circuitry being less than the ideal road to go down.

     
    Sure, but my Octa Capture surely can't record 24 tracks either. So that still wouldn't be a solution.
     
    I really appreciate the help but i'm just a little amazed that there is no simple answer like "Yeah, that and that mixer can easily do that". I truly thought i simply missed an option but i guess it's not that easy.
    #13
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 17:18:38 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    There is a thread about the Soundcraft 
     
    You'll see the OP gave up because the multitrack USB output was about half the level he desired. 
    I still like the features of that board over the similar Presonus studio live series. But for me it would be a live mixer first not a studio interface. Those 2 are Analog boards with USB multi channel interfaces. From there you get into digital boards which are better but not for everyone. Many require an iPad to run, I kind of want the physical faders to be there. 
    The one I was looking at for the studio because I felt the audio drivers would be a higher quality was a Motu interface. Either that of RME. You'll want to upgrade from the Roland if your going to have clients coming in.. I wouldn't trust one after the numerous threads with issues with drivers. 




    I'll go through that thread. Thanks!
     
    Yeah, i don't mind upgrading from that Roland DI. I just still don't know to what.
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    synkrotron
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/29 23:10:40 (permalink)
    Personally I would ask the question, would 16 tracks suffice, and if the answer was "yes" then just get another O-C.

    Downside would be you would still need another interface to give you the " hands on" level of control over over the mixing controls.

    A while back, when I first delved into multi-tracking I installed an RME card which had ADAT light pipe and I also splashed out on a Berhinger 16 channel MIDI mixer so, as others have mentioned here, that is certainly an option to consider.

    I gave up on that setup when the band I was in kinda fell apart and I gave up on music for a time. When I got back into it I decided that I wanted to go laptop based and I gave the mixer to a nephew.

    Good luck in your quest though and I sincerely hope you suss this out and get down to some serious tracking

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    gswitz
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/30 04:16:16 (permalink)
    There are lots of mixers that record. Fewer that have 24 inputs. Some smaller units can be expanded to 24.

    I have a Tascam 2488. When I slave my RME to the Tascam via SPIDF and the Audient to the RME that gives me 24 concurrent tracks six of which cannot be mixed to the mains.

    This link looks like something I'd try if it weren't for the gear I own.

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/F8

    You can use up to three RME UCX units or UFX units together. In the case of UFX units I think that gets you to 72 in/out.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/30 06:00:07 (permalink)
    synkrotron
    Personally I would ask the question, would 16 tracks suffice, and if the answer was "yes" then just get another O-C.

    Downside would be you would still need another interface to give you the " hands on" level of control over over the mixing controls.

    A while back, when I first delved into multi-tracking I installed an RME card which had ADAT light pipe and I also splashed out on a Berhinger 16 channel MIDI mixer so, as others have mentioned here, that is certainly an option to consider.

    I gave up on that setup when the band I was in kinda fell apart and I gave up on music for a time. When I got back into it I decided that I wanted to go laptop based and I gave the mixer to a nephew.

    Good luck in your quest though and I sincerely hope you suss this out and get down to some serious tracking



    Yeah, i might go that route for now until i figure out a better option. 16 tracks certainly isn't bad to start with.
     
    Any idea if a "normal" computer will handle 16 tracks at once? I7 with 16 gigs. Is 16 channels a lot for a DAW or like no problem at all?
    #17
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/30 06:00:47 (permalink)
    gswitz
    There are lots of mixers that record. Fewer that have 24 inputs. Some smaller units can be expanded to 24.

    I have a Tascam 2488. When I slave my RME to the Tascam via SPIDF and the Audient to the RME that gives me 24 concurrent tracks six of which cannot be mixed to the mains.

    This link looks like something I'd try if it weren't for the gear I own.



    You can use up to three RME UCX units or UFX units together. In the case of UFX units I think that gets you to 72 in/out.



    Great, i will check this out. Thanks!
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    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/30 10:21:18 (permalink)
    Ok, did some more browsing.
     
    Let's say i buy this:
     
    Tascam-us20x20 (had to remove the link, spam fiilter)
     
    Would i simply be able to connect an analog mixer to it and the Tascam re-routes the 20 channels to Sonar, ready for recording?
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    gswitz
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/30 17:11:32 (permalink)
    The UFX+ has MADI for 94/94 channels.
     
    You have to plug in other MADI compatible units, but it gives you a single input for up to 94 channels to the computer (USB3 or firebolt - I mean thunderbolt).
     
    Me, I don't want the trouble to set up that many mics. Who does?
     
    Someone would have to pay me.
     
    :-)
     
    You can hook up external compliant mixers to the RME units. Idk about the tascam 20x20.
     
    That said, while RME UCX supports a mixer, I haven't met or hear of anyone using an external mixer. The closest is people who get good with the RME Remote Controls. For the most part, we all do it in the computer or on the iPad.
     
    RME's iPad solution doesn't wander. You are tethered and not wireless. I don't know of any effort to enable untethered wireless wandering from RME units. When I say tethered, I mean you have an actual USB cord connecting the iPad to the UFX/UCX.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/30 19:54:35 (permalink)
    Go to Sweetwaters site and look at the mixers. ( or any on line retailer)  Most of the popular models are listed and compare features when you look at the bottom. 
    You can even ask the Sweetwater people what your looking for. Asking on general forums is going to result in conflicting information as many people will have many different opinions and ideas. 
     
    Study the specifications of the mixers and make a list of what you want. 
     
    Sounds like you'll be comparing multi channel USB capable models. 
    https://www.sweetwater.com/c264--Analog_Mixers
     
    FYI,, none will be USB 3. All are USB 2 which can easily hadle 24 channels of audio. 
    I record 16 tracks using my Tascam us164 and a 2008 Sony laptop recording audio is not very demanding. It's what you do with it afterwards. 

    Johnny V  
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     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #21
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/30 21:32:11 (permalink)
    gswitz
    The UFX+ has MADI for 94/94 channels.
     
    You have to plug in other MADI compatible units, but it gives you a single input for up to 94 channels to the computer (USB3 or firebolt - I mean thunderbolt).
     
    Me, I don't want the trouble to set up that many mics. Who does?
     
    Someone would have to pay me.
     
    :-)
     
    You can hook up external compliant mixers to the RME units. Idk about the tascam 20x20.
     
    That said, while RME UCX supports a mixer, I haven't met or hear of anyone using an external mixer. The closest is people who get good with the RME Remote Controls. For the most part, we all do it in the computer or on the iPad.
     
    RME's iPad solution doesn't wander. You are tethered and not wireless. I don't know of any effort to enable untethered wireless wandering from RME units. When I say tethered, I mean you have an actual USB cord connecting the iPad to the UFX/UCX.





    No idea what you are saying but i'll figure it out :)
     
    Thanks!
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    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/09/30 21:32:25 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    Go to Sweetwaters site and look at the mixers. ( or any on line retailer)  Most of the popular models are listed and compare features when you look at the bottom. 
    You can even ask the Sweetwater people what your looking for. Asking on general forums is going to result in conflicting information as many people will have many different opinions and ideas. 
     
    Study the specifications of the mixers and make a list of what you want. 
     
    Sounds like you'll be comparing multi channel USB capable models. 

     
    FYI,, none will be USB 3. All are USB 2 which can easily hadle 24 channels of audio. 
    I record 16 tracks using my Tascam us164 and a 2008 Sony laptop recording audio is not very demanding. It's what you do with it afterwards. 




    Good advice. Thank you.
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    gswitz
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/10/01 23:02:02 (permalink)
    RME UFX and UCX can be controlled using mackie interface plugged in through midi ports.

    https://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_ufx_e.pdf

    See page 88.

    This gives you physical faders and pan pots etc for your interface. I don't have any friends controlling an RME this way.

    There is another way to put in a hardware controller for the interface...
    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ARCUSB

    This device is made by RME for RME users.

    ...

    Another tool for controlling the interface is an iPad.

    ...

    The most common controller is a computer. Using a touch screen you can adjust settings silently.

    The four methods above all require a device physically wired to the interface. That means you cannot take it with you into the crowd.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #24
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/10/02 04:51:49 (permalink)
    I have a feeling you don't understand my question? Also i'm not buying a 2000 dollar UFX haha. But thanks for your time though.
    #25
    AT
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/10/02 05:12:07 (permalink)
    The Tascam US 20x20 is a good candidate, I would think.  8 pres, 10 ADDA converters, while the other 10 of 20 ins/outs come from the optical (ADAT) and Spdif in/out.  So $500 for 20 input/output channels, tho you need to find an ADAT unit or mixer output to get to 20.  All good quality hardware and USB 3 (which gets me down to 4-5 ms latency here at home).
     
    Other than having to add an ADAT ADDA it should be pretty simple to physically route the appropriate mixer (needs line outs for each channel or plenty of buss and subs) to the inputs.  But then you have to set up the TASCAMs soft mixer for internal routing.  Then set up SONAR's soft mixer.  So, it can get a little complicated which means you just have to be careful.  But it can be done

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    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/10/02 06:47:11 (permalink)
    Also a slightly related question. IF i ever get a mixer connected to my computer, what happens with the Sonar mixer? Let's say on my analog mixer i push the fader up, what happens to Sonar's fader on that same channel? Does it move along? If not what do i do with Sonar's mixer? Just ignore it?
    #27
    AT
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/10/02 13:24:19 (permalink)
    Unless it is a controller mixer, the mixer simply controls its own internal sounds.  SONAR (and your interface with a its own soft mixer) don't change at all.
     
    You can't ignore SONAR's mixer - it controls how much of the signal from your mixer gets into SONAR.  And you still mix out of it, using automation.  That is how it is usually done.  In that case, the mixer is static and the levels should be zeroed out.

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    #28
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/10/02 15:49:30 (permalink)
    Somanyquestions
    Also a slightly related question. IF i ever get a mixer connected to my computer, what happens with the Sonar mixer? Let's say on my analog mixer i push the fader up, what happens to Sonar's fader on that same channel? Does it move along? If not what do i do with Sonar's mixer? Just ignore it?




     
    Nothing will happen if it's an analog mixer. The USB connection from analog mixers only sends audio back and forth. 
    Some digital mixers can control Sonar but you need to set that up and it's obviously not easy when you read all the posts about this topic. Example my Yamaha 01V will control SOnar via it's midi port but I have to configure a long list of menu options first. 
    A control surface is not a mixer as it has no audio only the controls. 

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    #29
    Somanyquestions
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    Re: Can't figure out which mixer to use 2017/10/03 09:01:05 (permalink)
    AT
    Unless it is a controller mixer, the mixer simply controls its own internal sounds.  SONAR (and your interface with a its own soft mixer) don't change at all.
     
    You can't ignore SONAR's mixer - it controls how much of the signal from your mixer gets into SONAR.  And you still mix out of it, using automation.  That is how it is usually done.  In that case, the mixer is static and the levels should be zeroed out.




    Confusing. Unless i'm reading it wrong you are saying you use the Sonar mixer and then you say it's static at 0 level?
    #30
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